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Author Topic: interleave depth / output power questions  (Read 12925 times)

jeffbb

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interleave depth / output power questions
« on: June 12, 2009, 07:10:10 PM »

HI

I have tried to find the answer to these  questions  without success .

1)  What is the maximum interleave depth that can be applied ?

from Kitz   steps Ive seen are 4, 8, 16, 32, 64 for the downstream and 2, 4, 8 for the upstream.

are these the maximum figures ?. Is the increase in latency dependant on the depth.

2) output power  . The most I have seen is 19.8 db  downstream . I have seen the conversion to mW , the question I have is if a line loses say 3db on downstream output power would that equate to about the same loss in synch speed as say an increase of 3db in Target snr ?

Regards Jeff
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 06:34:00 PM by jeffbb »
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kitz

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Re: interleave depth / output power questions
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2009, 12:17:37 PM »

Sorry I thought I answered this the other day... or at least I recall starting to, but several of the past few days have been a blur :/

>> are these the maximum figures ?

The depth of interleaving is up to the Telco (and the available software settings available on the dslam/msan).  Those are the max figures Ive seen, but interleaving depth could virtually be up to anything you want.  I'm pretty sure that I read something ages ago saying that it was possible for interleaving depth to be as much as the codeword transmitted. I believe the limitation is on the size of the frame*

Yes theres a payoff - the increase in depth increases the amount of latency.
The greater the interleaving, then the more overheads and more redundant data transmitted.  The more redundant bits to be processed takes just that tiny weeny bit extra transmission and processing time.

>> output power  . The most I have seen is 19.8 db  downstream

I have since seen a line running at 20dB, but only the once... most lines running at full power still seem to be around the 19.5 -19.8 mark.

>> if a line loses say 3db on downstream output power would that equate to about the same loss in synch speed as say an increase of 3db in Target snr ?

Im not certain... but I dont think so... the power output decreases to avoid the signal becoming too strong to drown out neighbouring lines.  afaik theres not anything recorded anywhere which tells you what this is.   I do know there are 3 levels of power output masks though depending on your location from the exchange.  Shorter lines obviously have a different mask to longer lines, as these are the ones with stronger Signals and therefore more likely to cause crosstalk for other lines.


--------------
*
Edit... cant find the original article I read, and this isnt it...
... but a quick google brought up a patent for interleaving larger than the codeword.

http://www.patentsurf.net/6,772,377

Which leads to this http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6772377.html...
Im not certain and I could be wrong...  but that to me looks like it may be awfully similar to what is used in S=1/2mode.
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jeffbb

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Re: interleave depth / output power questions
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2009, 02:17:18 PM »

Hi

Hope you are feeling better  :)
Thank you  for the reply .Still reading through the links .  :graduate:
The reason I asked these 2 questions was that I had seen one user with a problem on another forum who had amongst other things an interleave depth of 160 ?. Which I thought was rather high but also seemed odd as I would have expected the figure to be something like 128 or 256 following the normal steps 4,8,16 etc.

The other one was that a user had a  low RX power even though he was not particularly close to the exchange . He was showing a low synch rate for his attenuation and SNR margin . I just wondered if that could be the cause ?

Still learning  :lol:

Regards Jeff
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kitz

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Re: interleave depth / output power questions
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2009, 03:03:59 PM »

>> low RX power even though he was not particularly close to the exchange
>> He was showing a low synch rate for his attenuation and SNR margin . I just wondered if that could be the cause ?

Possibly,
I'd normally recommend that a resync is in order.   You can sometimes see this occur on a line that has had a bad sync, then the SNRM shoots back up and recovers. 
I dont know the actual figures that trigger it, so the following is just an example....
....but it could be say that after the noise burst, the SNRM goes up to 20dB.   
The dslam will think hmmm SNR too high.. signal too strong... reduce power output.
Ive seen this occur on my own line a few times where power output drops to about 14/15 after a low sync due to something like a storm or powercut.

Can also be symptomatic of a problem on the line or linecard.

>> interleave depth of 160

hmmmm I must profess Ive never seen one that high!  like you say I would expect it to be a multiple.
Perhaps a firmware reporting issue.. and it should actually be 16? 

Is that line by any chance using adsl2/ adsl2+/21CN?
s=1/2mode isnt really used on dsl max - which is when I wrote those figures on that page 
me wonders if s=1/2 mode (used by adsl2/2+) now means that the depth can be increased further if the DLM decides its in order.

/stresses that the above is a theory and could be complete twaddle.

>> Still learning

Youre doing a grand job and learning fast :)
- See youre asking Q's that I dont fully know the answer too  :lol:

 
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jeffbb

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Re: interleave depth / output power questions
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2009, 08:07:40 PM »

Hi
Thanks for the reply

See youre asking Q's that I dont fully know the answer too    Not very often  ;D

I will see if I can find the individuals posts again and see how they have got on !



Regards Jeff
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kitz

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Re: interleave depth / output power questions
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2009, 08:17:24 PM »

BTW just stumbled across this
ftp://ftp.estec.esa.nl/pub/vhdl/doc/MS13544.pdf

Apparently this device is for military/space, so it wont be quite the same, but rate adaptive DSL also uses Reed Soloman and Convolutional Encoding.

Note though how it says
Quote
Reed-Solomon check symbols
32, 64, 96, 128, 160, 192, 224, 256 octets

Would be interesting to know if the person with 160 is using adsl2+ / 21CN
« Last Edit: June 20, 2009, 07:59:07 PM by kitz »
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jeffbb

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Re: interleave depth / output power questions
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2009, 06:53:48 PM »

Hi
Couldn't connect to the link had page error will try again thanks later. :)
Regards jeff
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kitz

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Re: interleave depth / output power questions
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2009, 07:57:42 PM »

Ive amended the post.. 
I think it was because I tried to use an inline link and the forum software kept insisting on inserting http in front of it.
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jeffbb

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Re: interleave depth / output power questions
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2009, 07:35:55 PM »

Hi

failed to connect with FF see attachment
but ok with IE  ;D

Noticed that Reed Solomon check symbols are multiples of 32 so number 5 (5 codewords ) is 160 ??. A bit heavy going . ???
All this about Telemetry takes me back many a year late 50s early 60s .Worked on telemetry for the MK1 and MK2 thunderbird air defense system (not the puppets ). Showing my age now  :lol:
 
Regards Jeff



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