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[Frosty]

Hi there folks, I'm hoping someone experienced with BT procedures could help me with this situation.

Basically I am suffering from intermittent line noise since Februay 2009. The noise is very audible and obviously affects the ADSL. I am approx 3km from the exchange and usually sync at 6880/832 with a up and downstream SNR of 9.

The noise only ever lasts a few seconds at a time, but can happen several times an hour. This results in several ADSL sync drops. In the time it takes for the ADSL to re-sync, the noise could of gone away and it resyncs at the same or faster rate.

Most the time it is the upstream that is affected. Each reconnect will have a downstream of 6000+ but the upstream will vary and be as low as 80 (eighty). I have also had 48 hours of 6880/832 with little change in the SNR.

You can view a typical day from the routers perspective at http://www.nooblet.org/blog/gallery/misc/router/full/2009-04-13.jpg.
This is a downstream graph. The blue line is the SNR, and the red line is the sync speed.

More graphs can be seen at http://www.nooblet.org/blog/pics/?lzkfile=misc%2Frouter%2F.

The noise I am hearing is scratching on the line, as if I am scratching the receiver on the phone. I don't beleive its rain as after 2 dry weather days I suffer from the issue.

So far I have tried:

Different routers:  Netgear DG834GT, Netgear DG834N, Zoom x3
Different microfilters: 3x Standard plug-in that came with modems, NTE5 faceplate with microfilter built-in
Different cables: All 3 modems came with their own cable
Plugging direct to test socket: I have no extensions but whenever I used a standard microfilter it was plugged into test socket
No modem, just phone, in test socket: Usually if I get a router disconnect, by the time I have run to the socket, unplugged all equipment and plugged in a wired phone the noise will have gone away. However today I was actually on the phone at the time when I had some bad noise so I connected to the test socket and still heard the noise. Now to me, this proves that it can't be my equipment as I am only using a wired phone, nothing else.

After todays test socket cofirmation I rang BT. Unfortunately the whole intermittency of the noise makes it hard to diagnose and even harder for BT to help me. Of course the standard line test came up fine. During my call to BT I had a perfect line, just like I do 95% of the time. I was warned of the charge I could incur for the engineers visit if the issue is found to be of my own equipment. I am pretty confident he/she won't find an issue my side of the master socket, but the woman at BT also said "if no fault is found then I am also liable for the charge, and any subsequent callout found to have no fault is chargeable". Now I'm worried. I know when the engineer comes my line will be fine, its sods law. But I can't afford to spend £115 for each callout until a fault is found.

What is the usual procedure for a problem such as mine?
An intermittent line fault must be darn near impossible to diagnose. As my neighbours aren't sufferent from the same issue, can I get switched to a different pair of wires regardless of whether a fault is found at the time?
Can my router graphs be used as evidence?
Should I buy a phone recorder or any proper line quality testing equipment?

[waltergmw]

Hi Frosty and welcome,

I suspect you are in for a long haul to solve this one.
It would help if you told us who your ISP and phone provider were.
Normally you could report a phone line fault to BT and it would get fixed.
You might have to try both the phone provider first and then your ISP.
The ISP will be more receptive to the broadband data obviously.

However with an intermittent fault you do need some evidence and you have started well with the Routerstats data.

Your Netgear modem(s0 should be compatible with DMT Tool which is also invaluable. Note that there are different versions for different modems giving similar but not identical data.
http://www.kitz.co.uk/routers/DMTv8.htm

That will show you if there are particular frequency problems and it sounds as if the lower frequencies are getting clobbered in your case.

Once you can provide evidence that will usually stop BT O putting the frighteners on.

Walter

[Frosty]

Thankyou for your reply waltergmw. I have opened a fault with BT direct for the line noise. The woman was sympathetic for my cause an dhas bookedn an engineer to check the external wiring which apparently isn't chargeable. Thankyou for the heads up regarding "in for the long haul". I will stick at it, and start by getting this tool you mentioned.

I am on the Nuneaton exchange direct with BT for the phone and am due to be moved to 21CN on 1st May. My ISP is Entanet through UKFSN.

I'll start by collecting more data, and have ordered a small recorder for the telephone line so maybe I can get a recording of the actual noise.

[Frosty]

I've loaded DMT and have my first screenshot. It seems upstream has the most errors.



SNR for upstream seems to be blank? A lot of data for me to analyze. Great program though

[roseway]

I don't think it's unusual for the SNR per tone graph to have no upstream data. Mine is the same (using a DG834GT). Perhaps that data isn't available from the router.

But your upstream noise margin is at its minimum value of 6 dB, which rather supports your observation that the upstream part is the main issue. It really does sound as though you have some sort of intermittent line fault or a faulty line card, and I agree with Walter that gathering lots of relevant data is your best course of action.

[jeffbb]

Hi

quote Most the time it is the upstream that is affected

If I remember correctly  Its been said that upstream problems can be related to internal wiring problems. Looking at some of your graphs  as here  http://www.nooblet.org/blog/pics/?lzkfile=misc%2Frouter%2F#
you seem to be getting quite a few reconnections . Some with improved synch and consequently lower SNR margin .were these self generated or were you tweaking using routerstats ?

Regards jeff

[Frosty]

If I remember correctly  Its been said that upstream problems can be related to internal wiring problems.

I wish it was. I have no internal wiring. No extensions, plugged directly into master test socket which comes out the ground on the other side of the wall.

you seem to be getting quite a few reconnections . Some with improved synch and consequently lower SNR margin .were these self generated or were you tweaking using routerstats ?

The graphs on that page are for RX info only, I shall have to compile a set which includes the TX sync.

I think my problem is to do with upload. My router claims an upload SNR of 6db *at all times*.

I would only force a resync if my upload couldn't handle a game of BF2 with Teamspeak. My work hours mean I leave early and don't get home till 8pm, I am married with children so don't get the oppurtunity to notice the majority of sync drops.

[kitz]

>> Now I'm worried. I know when the engineer comes my line will be fine, its sods law. But I can't afford to spend £115 for each callout until a fault is found.

I can fully understand that.. and it is a worry for many :/
The charge should only apply if the fault is found to be with your own equipment.

>> Can my router graphs be used as evidence?

Yes if you get an openreach engineer that understands such things. 
The problem here is that because it affects both voice and adsl then it should be done via voice...  but not all openreach engineers are trained to understand adsl.

Possibly the best thing to do would be upfront and explain to the engineer that it is an intermittent fault that seems to come and go.. say you have done extensive testing yourself and have eliminated all your own equipment as being the cause.  Then say you have graphs showing when the problem is worst since its also [understandably] affecting your adsl

It also comes in handy to offer tea and biccies - or bacon butties seems to be another favourite frequnetly mentioned.

[roseway]

>> The charge should only apply if the fault is found to be with your own equipment.

That's probably true if the fault is reported as a voice fault, but a different rule seems to apply if the engineer visit is arranged through the ISP for an ADSL fault. This happened to me a few months back, and there was no fault with my own equipment, but I was charged £188 because no fault was found with the BT line or equipment - the fault was external interference.

[kitz]

This happened to me a few months back, and there was no fault with my own equipment, but I was charged £188 because no fault was found with the BT line or equipment - the fault was external interference.

This was one thing that occurred to me when making my reply and frosty mentioned Enta.  Jason is pretty hot when it comes to adsl stuff and it did cross my mind to get the ISP involved if there was no joy with the voice side.   However why I didnt mention the ISP is because Enta automatically bill the user if theres a 'no fault found' returned. 

Some ISPs will let you dispute this - and it really does depend on the ISP whether they will or are prepared to dispute the 'no fault found' BT fee.  It seems a bit harder for the ISP to dispute it, because of the  drawn out EU <--> ISP <--> BTw <--> Openreach involvement.  With Enta you also have yet another step in there with the reseller.
I know Plusnet do dispute as long as youve followed all their guidelines..  I think Azzaka if he's about will confirm that Zen often do too.

[Frosty]

Well I think I have been very lucky. A BT engineer came to the house yesterday morning as promised by the lady from BT on Saturday. It was meant to be a non chargeable, external only visit.

However, following your advise, when the engineer rang to make sure I was in, I dashed downstairs, put the kettle on, stuck toast in the toaster and started some bacon on the grill. Engineer arrived approx 9am and waiting for him was fresh breakfast! The guy looked well happy!

He checked where the wires entered the house and found 2 very manky and rusty connecters that hooked the external wire to the internal. He took those off and put a tester on the wiring. His words were "I have never before come accross a connection as good as yours this far from the exchange". Apparently having all 4 readings of "OVR" meant very good, not that I understood what it meant, perhaps someone here could explain?

Now with new connectors he confirmed that the line seemed fine and there wasn't much he could do. But he came in the house and replaced the internal wiring that goes from the wall outside to the master socket. Seemed like he was really putting effort into helping me out. I think the bacon butties helped this along somewhat!

I can happily report that the following 24 hours have been disconnect free. And my upload SNR has risen to 8db from the previous 6db. I am currently running at a manually set download SNR of 15db, I'll change it back to a DSLAM driven SNR after it stays stable for a week or so. This never helped in the past for my issue but I don't want to disconnect or reboot when its behaving so well.

Crossing my fingers, thanks for the advice so far, this forum and the site have been very helpful.

[roseway]

I dashed downstairs, put the kettle on, stuck toast in the toaster and started some bacon on the grill. Engineer arrived approx 9am and waiting for him was fresh breakfast! The guy looked well happy!

Brilliant strategy!

Hopefully the improvement will stick.

[kitz]

heh the bacon butty trick 

Well done