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[roseway]

An interesting post here from the CEO of Newnet, concerning the economics of an IPStream-based ISP. It makes it pretty obvious that the apparently generous download allowances of some ISPs would be completely unsustainable without strong traffic management, and that all ISPs depend on light users to effectively subsidise the heavy users.

[UncleUB]

I'm doing my light user bit.   

[kitz]

I have no qualms with what Peter says - it makes perfect sense.

I think the earlier adapters to adsl may be more aware of the economic cost of adsl than some of the more recent newcomers who want it for as cheap as possible.

If its cheap then there will be a compromise to be made.  The longstanding ISPs who used to provide decent good service just simply cannot compete with the likes of some other ISPs who appear to give it away.  I cant recall the exact figures now but TT adsl in the first few years lost millions.

Many years ago I said that I suspected that the TTs and Sky type ISPs were able to provide cheap adsl by being subsidised by their other financial ventures (CPW or Sky TV).  They will grab a pile of customers, the decent ISPs will not be able to compete on price and will either have to subsidise from some other venture/ sell/ merge/ be bought out.
Then once the likes of Sky/TT have the monopoly and theres hardly any decent ISPs left.. then watch them put their prices up.


Weve already seen many decent ISPs having to have been taken over by the likes of Tiscali/TT etc because they cant afford to stay in business..  and already TT and sky are no longer doing the 'free broadband'.

Several years ago I also did a capacity report for another site which outlined the true cost of adsl in the UK.
Pricing has slightly changed now that more exchanges are LLU'd  and we now have 'market 3' exchanges...  but the pricing isnt that much different.
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/adsl_cost.htm

My fear is that home adsl will at one point only be available via the likes of sky/TT and that there will be no decent ISPs left for those users that are prepared to pay a little bit more for a decent service.

[waltergmw]

Kitz et al,

To this scenario we will need to add in the future the introduction of FTTC and FTTH probably at significantly higher costs.
(Note the prices Virgin have announced for their 50 Mbps services.)

Another point to question is for those ISPs who have totally independent LLU services; how are they to be integrated back into a fibre-based topology, either still staying isolated but perhaps sharing ducts or re-joining a BT O type network again, and also whether or not the "Last mile" supplier is still closely linked to one major CP - at least for the 40% by 2012 so far announced? Similar questions also need to be asked for the use of Virgin Media and H2O fibre?

There are those who hope (pray ?) that the commercial world will provide most of the services required by both business and domestic users.
There are others who are far from convinced that these matters are being adequately addressed at technical, financial or regulatory levels.
Some even question the long-term effects of privatisation, particularly when compared to those countries with far more advanced fibre networks using a single CP solution.

Kind regards,
Walter

[MollyCoddle]

Firstly, I admit to not being biassed towards the Industry.

It would be a much fairer system of charging if the customer paid on a consideration of download and an average of their IP profile for the month.
This may motivate ISP's to fix problems and more efficiently so, so they could raise their customers profile.

As stated earlier, an unfair system is currently used, with the light users subsidising the heavy.

If you are fair, you can then let the market decide which ISP's are inefficient -- good for the consumer, good for those ISP's with real skills.

MC

[HPsauce]

and an average of their IP profile for the month

The problem with that particular factor is that some costs are very roughly inversely proportional to it.
The costs for providing a line (ignoring back-haul bandwidth) are the fixed (end-point) costs plus the provision/maintenance of the line.
The longer the line, the more it costs but the slower it goes..... 

[MollyCoddle]

@HP

Where there is a will......you can always find a fair pricing mechanism.

MC

[Azzaka]

... and that all ISPs depend on light users to effectively subsidise the heavy users.

Light users end up costing us more money per calander year due to the level of support they require. Its the Business users that pay our wages as they have done the checks before they call.

[waltergmw]

@azzaka

I beg to suggest not in every case, especially if your clients are in the Surrey hills !

Kind regards,
Walter

[Azzaka]

@azzaka

I beg to suggest not in every case, especially if your clients are in the Surrey hills !

Kind regards,
Walter

  not all Walter ... Not all 

[jeffbb]

Hi
I cannot speak about ZEN as I have not used them . As for cost of light users the MAIN causes are that unscrupulous ISPs make false promises to uninformed potential customers . Then instead of sorting their problems they run them around the houses for weeks /months on end . No names no pack drill but T springs to mind.
Regards Jeff

[Azzaka]

G'Day Jeff,

In my opinion the reason why they cost us is a lack of knowlegde. We WILL guide the new customer and help were most others wont. This is important to me, however we have been finding ways to show the customer how to help themselves, curtting down the time they spend on the phone to us when they call and the amount of time they call.

Leo

[waltergmw]

Hi Leo,

There are obviously degrees of involvement depending upon the personall situation of the user and the fault being investigated.

The following is one aproach

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/i/3914.html

but I doubt if such a solution would be of great help to those on long lines that I'm involved with.

Another method would be a portable set of test equipment with a remotely accesible laptop and a matching modem as I have.
However the logistics of that sort of operation unless it was allocated to a visiting troubleshooter would be quite costly.

Kind regards,
Walter

[jeffbb]

Hi Leo

I believe that Zen has a good reputation for help . Many others do not  you have seen this

http://www.tiscali.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=153758&page=1&pp=15

I had months of problems with the same company where my line went from being able to support *max to 2Mbps to 500Kbps back to 2Mbps etc etc depending on which help?? person I got . This went on for weeks . I was lucky to find this site and was able to get statistics to show that my line was healthy.(didnt help one bit with level 1 and 2 help at txxxxxi)Eventually by luck I short circuited the help system  . In 15 minutes I was connected at 6Mbps . (mind you doesn't really help as throughput is horrendously slow .
Like most people I trusted the advertising to be reasonable and FAIR
 Would any of us be happy  with  a car that was advertised as able to do up to 300 MPG. but in fact returned <20MPG. because buried in the small print it said (depending on conditions )One of which was that 90% of journeys had to be downhill.

this is from BT regarding connection speed

    4.     Other factors affecting speed include distance from the exchange and internal home wiring. If your line won’t support up to 8Mb, we’ll offer the best speed available on your line. Conditions apply.

As that stands I accept that any line can only deliver X speed .

BUT where is there any mention of contention problems that are totally the responsibility of the provider . Dropping actual throughput by as much as 95% and nothing gets done .


 In this day and age you shouldn't have to have a degree or vast resources to be able to communicate on the internet.

So its NOT all the users to blame .
Thank goodness that there  is  this forum with willing people to assist those that are unfortunate enough to be with the less than helpful ISPs.

Regards Jeff

[kitz]

>> Many others do not  you have seen this

I cant believe that six months on tiscali have still done naff all about it 
I really can not believe that guys patience either.