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[risk_reversal]

Hi guys, first time poster on this forum and may I say that I am delighted to have found this site, really excellent.

I have an issue on my ADSLMax connection which is as follows: Basically, my connection usually runs fine ie  6000+ up, 360+ dn (ping: first hop to exchange low teens / early twenties) all the time APART from approx between 11.30AM (ie noon) and 5.30PM.

In between those times ie 1130AM and 5.30PM, speeds drop and are variable between 950-1750 kbps (dn) and 200-300 kbps (up) with ping to exchange rising to 85-95ms. My BT IP profile is set at 7150 and has not changed since I went on Max a couple of weeks ago. My SNR is steady at 6-7db during ‘slowdown’ period (Attenuation 28db), I am using a DG834 v2.

My exchange is green (upgraded in Feb-07) with the prodigy site confirming this. Though not sure why it has Green (2000kbps) next to the Max speed entry (see below).

Line speed capabilities

Rate adaptive (250k and 500k) :  Green
Fixed Rate (1000k and 2000k) :  Green
MAX speed (upto 8000k) :  Green (2000 kbps)

I appreciate that speeds would drop in the evening as the service becomes contended but my speeds in the evening are 6000+. Prior to Max, I was on a fixed speed line (2Mb) and contention did not occur in the afternoon but the evening ie 6-11PM.

Now I was wondering in the first instance if anyone had any ideas as to what is happening to my connection during those hours. This slowdown is very much less pronounced over the weekend. I though perhaps there are business users on my ‘line card’ (been reading the info on this forum) but I am guessing that business users are on separate line cards and virtual paths to home users.

In the second instance, is their anything I can do to resolve this. My ISP is prepared to log in a call to BT but I would like some idea of what can be done. I understand that I can request a ‘port change’ (lift and shift) and be moved either to a new ‘Virtual Path’ or more likely to another DSLAM. I am guessing that the port change must entail moving my ‘details’ from one ‘line card’ to another?

Is changing ‘port’ something that will likely help or is it going to be a ‘suck it and see’ type of situation. The DSLAM details to my exchange are as follows.



Many thanks for any info provided.

[Astral]

Hi, and welcome to the forum. Afraid I can't answer your question, but I'm dying to know what that figure in brackets means. I've asked the same question myself, but have never had a definitive answer.

My only suggestion is that you have a very heavy user on your exchange at the critical time or some other interference occurs from nearby electrical machinery etc.

Does this occur seven days a week, or only Monday to Friday?

  Just re-read your post and see you have covered my suggestions, so I am of no help whatsoever. Fortunately there will be people along shortly who will almost certainly be able to help.

[risk_reversal]

Hi, many thanks for your reply.

Interestingly, I just ran another Prodigy update and this is what came back

Line speed capabilities

Rate adaptive (250k and 500k) :  Green
Fixed Rate (1000k and 2000k) :  Green
MAX speed (upto 8000k) :  Green (8000 kbps)

Question: Is the Prodigy result for my line and DSLAM only or for the exchange as a whole.

EDIT:Well I just typed in any old number running from my exchange into Prodigy and it came back as follows:

 Rate adaptive (250k and 500k) :  Green
Fixed Rate (1000k and 2000k) :  Green
MAX speed (upto 8000k) :  Green (6500 kbps)

So perhaps this is only for my own DSLAM/VP......

Cheers

[kitz]

Hi and welcome.

I too would expect normal contention to get worse in the evening and things start to slow down at that particular time. My obvious thought (like you) was Office accounts. 

For a long time I suffered dreadfully during the evenings whilst on the old 50:1, and speeds would be worst after peak.  I got a bit fed up of this and now pay extra to be on an office (old 20:1) account.
I was "lift and shifted" on to a new VP and one of the first things I noticed was that 8.30am (particulary on Monday mornings) suddenly became the new "peak time".

On "traditional" adsl 20:1 and 50:1 accounts are on separate VPs so they dont interfere with each other. BUT with the arrival of MAXdsl also came some "Super VPs" where both Home and Office users are all on the same VP.  These VPs are larger- they have more users on a same VP but are supposed to have more bandwidth.  When the VP gets busy then the Office users get priority over the Home users.

In the past Ive seen at least 2 cases where customers have had both a business line and a home line.  These users conducted some tests and found that they could actually cause contention against the other line to kick in.  One case was quite interesting because BT had stuffed up and configured the prioritisation the wrong way round.  Therefore if he maxed out his home connection, his office connection would immediately fare badly.

I'm guessing here - because its very seldom that we find out which dslam/line card we are on..  but I wouldnt be too surprised if you were on the MSAN. Notice the number of -ve figures on the older dslams
I have no proof of this and am talking from my own observations on what has been going on at my own exchange.

What does seem to be happening is that BT seem to be moving MAX'd customers off the older type dslams and on to new MSANs which can hold more users.

Looking at those stats the bandwidth on the VPs isnt much - A dslam backhaul is 155Mb so subtract the available bandwidth column from 155Mb to work out the capacity on each dsalm.
Then if you bear in mind that a dslam has at least 4 VPs plus any datastream VPs then some of the VP allocations are pretty small in terms of Mbs.


So even if you are still on an old style dslam then its entirely possible that the habits of just 2 users maxing their lines could be causing the problems you are seeing.
It could be office users if youre on the MSAN... or because some ISPs only throttle home connections during peaktimes, it could very well be a couple of "heavies" doing their downloads off peak.

Ummm.. sorry I think Ive just rambled, its been a very long day..
In my own mind I can see 2 plausable reasons why you are experiencing what you are seeing, and I hope youve managed to make sense of what Ive said.  Im off to bed now... so sorry if doesnt quite make sense.

[risk_reversal]

Many thanks for your reply kitz that was most kind of you to go into such detail.

In my own mind I can see 2 plausable reasons why you are experiencing what you are seeing.....

1. If you are still on an old style dslam then its entirely possible that the habits of just 2 users maxing their lines could be causing the problems you are seeing.

2. It could be office users if youre on the MSAN... or because some ISPs only throttle home connections during peaktimes, it could very well be a couple of "heavies" doing their downloads off peak.

My ISP does not have peak and off peak download periods so that is not likely the case.

However, may I please pick your brains in respect of the following:

1. Let us assume for a second that I am on an MSAN. Given the actual times when my connection slows down (ie daytime and hardly any impact at night or w/end) this is not an unreasonable conclusion. Would my ISP be able to get BT to confirm this.

2. From a BT persective, I take it that the Max speeds that I am experiencing do not fall within BT 'fault' parameters. By that I mean if my ISP reported this to BT then it is likely that BT would say there is no error on the line.

3. My ISP said that they could ask BT to check my port but from what you are saying this too would probably be a pointless excercise.

4. What is the likelyhood that BT would accept to 'lift and p00' from MSAN to a proper DSLAM.

5. I considered changing to a higher priority business account but is there any likelyhood that this would correct the speed issues during the times that I am affected, or would I just be paying more to have a better connection when the office mob went home (ie same as now), if you see what I mean.

I am just tying to fathom out what to communicate to my ISP so that I can at least provide him with alternatives and direct him to a solution.

Many thanks

[mr_chris]

Hi there

I hesitate to ask this, but are you 100% sure there's nothing else on your PC / network / wireless using your connection?

Contention doesn't usually cause ping times to increase that much. It also doesn't usually cause upload speeds to decrease. With your ping times increasing in line with your downstream and upstream speeds decreasing like that, my first thought would be to make sure that there's nothing else running on your PC or any other maching connected to your network that's using a lot of bandwidth.

Now, maybe I'm speaking out of turn, but if you have wireless, is it encrypted with WPA and MAC address restrictions? (not the be-all and end-all of security, but it does help deter the casual wireless thief)

If you install NetMeter on your PC does it show any usage during the time when pings are bad?

If not, and it is a weird BT / priority problem then yes it does need sorting... and if you're sure there is absolutely nothing wrong with your own setup, then the ISP should be able to get it resolved by BT.

So my answer to your questions would be (based on all diagnostics your end being ok):

1. I don't know whether BT will confirm what DSLAM / MSAN you are on. I've never heard of this, so chances are this would be a 'No'

2. The Max speeds you are seeing do not technically fall within 'fault' parameters, but given the problems and the odd timings of them, it should be accepted as a speed fault.

3. This might be your best bet, funnily enough. If it is a weird priority issue, then BT examining your exchange port might be the best way to go. They might reset / reconfigure it so that you do not get too swamped by other users. Maybe.

4. Probably as a last resort, if the SFI (special faults investigations) team got involved, then they may try this.

5. It might help, as (a) it might reset your priority level, or (b) if you really are simply getting swamped by some heavy business users, at least you'd be contending against them on an equal basis, rather than as a 'lowly' home user. You might be able to get your ISP to try this for a month for you to see if it helps, on a trial basis, perhaps.

Just for info, it will cost your ISP £5+VAT to change you to Max Premium, which in turn costs an extra £3.60 per month. It would cost them £5 to change you back to normal Max as well.

Not sure if that helps or not!

[risk_reversal]

Many thanks for your reply mr_chris.

I hesitate to ask this, but are you 100% sure there's nothing else on your PC / network / wireless using your connection?

I am pretty sure (as in 99%). I will have a stab with NetMeter but as I said earlier with my fixed line this did not happen at all during those time.

Now, maybe I'm speaking out of turn, but if you have wireless, is it encrypted with WPA and MAC address restrictions? (not the be-all and end-all of security, but it does help deter the casual wireless thief)

Well I don’t have cutting edge hardware but this is what I have done

1. Password to access router interface changed
2. New SSID name
3. Broadcast SSID set to disable
4. Router set to MAC addresses of wireless cards only (no other sharers noted)
5. WEP 128-bit shared key

Here are some screenshots of tests I ran a while ago.

Timed 13:56. The upload speed not so bad this afternoon. The download speed has been down to 835 kbps. The slowdown today started at about 12.30pm.



Here is a tracert timed at 13:58pm. During 'normal' service, pings are usually in the low teens early twenties. The pings on the screenshot below are not so bad. Usually during the 'slowdown' period pings are generally much higher (60-95ms) especially on the second hop as stated above.

Just for info, it will cost your ISP £5+VAT to change you to Max Premium, which in turn costs an extra £3.60 per month. It would cost them £5 to change you back to normal Max as well.

Not sure I understand. My ISP’s rate for going onto the identical download package  but as a business user (with upload at 832kbps) is an extra £11.00. Is this Max Premium something which falls inbetween the Home and Business package.

So basically if I have understood correctly, my best bet right now is to ask my ISP (whom I have not mentioned by name because I am not sure what the correct protocol regarding this issue is on this forum) to report a fault to BT and to ask that my port at the exchange be examined for correct operation.…is this correct….

Many thanks for your valued comments.

[risk_reversal]

And by way of comparison here are screenshots of how speeds / pings change after about 5.30PM.

This speedtest is timed at 17:24



This tracert timed at 17:26



These speeds / pings will remain in force till lunchtime tomorrow......

Cheers

[kitz]

Hi

Sorry for the ramble it had been along day and I didint even get chance to visit the forums yesterday cause I was so busy :/

chris spotted something that I missed (d'oh) and that was your upstream speed you say also drops a little bit too.  This is more unusual and even when Ive suffered really bad contention, my upstream was still ok.

Getting BT to confirm anything as regards to contention, or capacity or routing is nigh on impossible.
Getting them to put you on a specific dslam is also a no-no - it totally depends on the next spare port (and possibly which dslam the engineer wants to work on) Im afraid :/

Re upgrading to the office package that more depends on your ISP and if they do such a package that is still reasonable cost to the end user.  I was lucky at about the time that I had my problems my ISP was offering 20:1 for a few extra £ per month for the old 20:1 2Mbers. They dont this this anymore though. :/ 

Max premium is the equivalent of the Office products ie the old 20:1 rather than home which is provisioned at 50:1.

For me knowing the horrific problems that we sometimes suffer on this exchange its worth it.  The trial basis is def worth a go. It would have to be something that you would have to ask your ISP how much extra it would cost. It worked for me and I decided to stay on it.  Whether or not it will work for you I cant say - hence why checking with your ISP first.

[risk_reversal]

Many thanks for the update.

I will see what BT's reply is once my isp has put this out as a fault. If BT can't accommodate then I guess my choices are obvious 1. Live with it 2. Upgrade to business user package (see if that cures) 2. Migrate to isp who has LLU.

Kind regards

[kitz]

Good Luck.

Hopefully BT find something, let us know how it goes

[havelock]

Hi Risk,

Looks like you're in the fortunate position of having a fault which persists during the hours BT engineers are appointed. To be honest it does indeed look like your connection is being affected by buisness users (Do you get the same problem during the same hours on Sundays when most companies are closed?)

How does the slowdown occur? Is it bang on 9.30am and your speed drops within a few minutes, or does it gradually slow over an hour or so? Is the same true at 5.30pm?

Also, does your modem/router log how many errors are occurring on the line, especially during your slow hours? It could also be some sort of REIN causing traffic loss and slowing your connection down - though this would be the biggest speed drop I've seen.

The best course of action would be to run a few BT speedtests (not the BBmax ones) during problem hours, and get your ISP to raise a slow speed fault for you. Within a few days this should be able to be progressed to a CSE visit if the fault cannot be fixed remotely.

Rgds (and good luck)
havelock

[risk_reversal]

Hopefully BT find something, let us know how it goes

Will do. At least it may provide some help to someone else in the same boat.

Do you get the same problem during the same hours on Sundays when most companies are closed?

Problem manifests itself in this extreme form from Mon-Fri. Usually starts at about noon but it could be 11am or 1.30pm but the end time is 5.30pm or pretty close to that. Weekends, well some contention but nothing like the one during weekdays.

How does the slowdown occur? Is it bang on 9.30am and your speed drops within a few minutes, or does it gradually slow over an hour or so? Is the same true at 5.30pm?

The slowdown usually occurs over a short period of time that I noticed usually about 30mins or so though could be an hour. Like people steadily login in.

Also, does your modem/router log how many errors are occurring on the line, especially during your slow hours?

Ran a Telnet session on my router DG834v2 and it didn't seem to show many errors.

The best course of action would be to run a few BT speedtests (not the BBmax ones) during problem hours, and get your ISP to raise a slow speed fault for you. Within a few days this should be able to be progressed to a CSE visit if the fault cannot be fixed remotely.

The issue is at the exchange ie my DSLAM/MSAN there is no doubt about it in my mind.
My house is fairly new wiring fine. I did several tests before going on Max to make sure everything was fine and I also did the wire trick too.

I will post back as soon as I get some feedback from my isp. If I could get this afternoon slowdown resolved then I would be extremely satisfied with the connection.

Cheers

[kitz]

Hi RR

Have you had any feedback yet and has a visit been arranged?

btw to clear up a small point.

>> My ISP does not have peak and off peak download periods so that is not likely the case.

This doesnt need to relate to your own ISP, theres lots of ISPs that encourange off peak downloading.  Some are fairly upfront about it - but even those "Unlimited" ISPs often block downloads during peak (6-12ish), so users are encouraged to do any downloading outside these hours. 
Your VP will be a mix of users from all ISPs, so available throughput will be dependant upon their usage habits.

[risk_reversal]

Have you had any feedback yet and has a visit been arranged?

Yes, my isp informed late yesterday that a BT engineer would look at this on Fri of next week. He would start his inspection at the exchange and if need be come to my house.

This doesnt need to relate to your own ISP, theres lots of ISPs that encourange off peak downloading.  Some are fairly upfront about it - but even those "Unlimited" ISPs often block downloads during peak (6-12ish), so users are encouraged to do any downloading outside these hours. 
Your VP will be a mix of users from all ISPs, so available throughput will be dependant upon their usage habits.

So basically if I am on a VP with other users from isps who have huge off peak download limits (say p2p downloaders) then I am going to get stuffed because of them.

Well that is b*****y marvellous. So basically the only way around it is to be on a DSLAM/VP which has quiet users which is obviously impossible. I am a mild user, dependending on my chidren's habits probably a very max of 15Gb but usually well under 10Gb.

In essence then I guess the only way to make any of inroad into this and alleviate the slowdown is to go for a business user package with higher priority. Alternatively, LLU.

Any other solutions......

EDIT: Have to say I hardly got any slowdown (thurs) afternoon and my connection since then has been excellent.

Many thanks for your help