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Author Topic: RouterStats and DMT not believed!!!!!  (Read 18607 times)

kitz

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Re: RouterStats and DMT not believed!!!!!
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2009, 12:46:14 PM »

Hmmm  those graphs are weird.... they dont look like the same line if I didnt know better.
The first one shows fairly decent bit loading across bins up to 122.  Bit loading in the bins after that would seem to imply there was (or had been) some noise occurring above 536 kHz.


The 2nd graph looks like its been taken at a later date...  and now bins 120+ are much better, with a better SNR (noise has disappeared), although there is still a tiny bit here and there but not too major.
The lower bit loading in the 2nd graph across the lower frequencies will likely now be due to your line being capped at 2272 kbps.

In ideal conditions that line should be getting just shy of 6Mb..  but the line is obviously very noisy...  and its very likely EMI from some source that is causing your problems.
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MollyCoddle

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Re: RouterStats and DMT not believed!!!!!
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2009, 03:10:22 PM »

>>The 2nd graph looks like its been taken at a later date
YES, the dates are in the title of the png, and of course they are the same line

>>The lower bit loading in the 2nd graph across the lower frequencies will likely now be due to your line being capped at 2272 kbps.

Interesting, as the following was taken at the same time as the 2nd tone/freq response chart.

I agree with your comments about noise, however its frustrating that my ISP constantly contradicts this and will not accept ant Routerstats/DMT evidence of re-sync and SNRM action.

What has happened was that BT capped the conn at 2272 and turned off interleaving in order to see if the line was stable. It continued to re-sync, but as the ISP raduis server logs showed 'user requested' disconnect, the ISP say my routers (yes both) are at fault. For some reason they do not want to considerr that the routers may be legit in re-syncing and that a fault is causing this.

The cap was taken off by BT on 4 March09, at which time G.dmt framing 'D' returned to 16,
and until today, both the ADSL 2 framing 'D' remained at 1, and the delay remained at 0.25.

Status: ShowtimeRetrain Reason: 0
Channel: INTR, Upstream rate = 448 Kbps, Downstream rate = 4160 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode:                   G.DMT
Channel:                Interleave
Trellis:                OFF
Line Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):       12.3            23.0
Attn(dB):       45.0            29.0
Pwr(dBm):       19.7            11.8
Max(Kbps):      4608            1084
Rate (Kbps):    4160            448
                        G.dmt framing
K:              131(0)          15
R:              12              16
S:              1               8
D:              16              2
                        ADSL2 framing
MSGc:           1               1
B:              131             15
M:              1               8
T:              1               1
R:              12              16
S:              1.0909          9.0000
L:              1056            128
D:              16              2
                        Counters
SF:             30856           30795
SFErr:          1               0
RS:             2098254         261757
RSCorr:         18106           0
RSUnCorr:       16              0

HEC:            1               0
OCD:            0               0
LCD:            0               0
Total Cells:    5146871         0
Data Cells:     143853          0
Drop Cells:     0
Bit Errors:     0               0

ES:             1               0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            18              0
AS:             525

INP:            0.72            1.00
PER:            1.90            1.96
delay:          4.36            4.50
OR:             29.33           28.44

Bitswap:        0               0
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BritBrat

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Re: RouterStats and DMT not believed!!!!!
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2009, 06:09:59 PM »

Have you checked/changed all filters or just remove phones to test stability?

Have you pluged the router directly into the test socket?

If you dial 17070 then option two (quiet line) do you hear any noise? ( I put my phone on speaker but dont have it near the ear when she speaks again :)).
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MollyCoddle

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Re: RouterStats and DMT not believed!!!!!
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2009, 06:18:51 PM »

@BritBrat

>>Have you checked/changed all filters or just remove phones to test stability?
Tried 2 routers, 5 micro-filters including ADSL Nation Pro, numerous RJ11 leads and many telephones.

>>Have you pluged the router directly into the test socket?
No extension wiring, and the microfilter is plugged directly into NTE-5 backplate

>>If you dial 17070 then option two
No audible noise when the router is unplugged. When router also in circuit I get a sound like a distant helicopter, however the ISP claims no noise on the line
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jeffbb

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Re: RouterStats and DMT not believed!!!!!
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2009, 06:26:28 PM »

Hi

No audible noise when the router is unplugged. When router also in circuit I get a sound like a distant helicopter, however the ISP claims no noise on the line

That does not sound good . I would expect to have quiet line whether the router is in circuit or not ?

Jeff
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BritBrat

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Re: RouterStats and DMT not believed!!!!!
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2009, 06:27:05 PM »

Are you running two testers at the same time?

DMT and Routerstats.

Because I don't think you can do that as you will have two login users.

I run router stats from one computer but it stops me login from another.

Quote
That does not sound good . I would expect to have quiet line whether the router is in circuit or not ?

Yes mine is quiet even on speaker I would not hear anything unless I put it close to my ear.

Remove all phone/fax devices (do you have an alarm system connected to phone line?) plug the router into the test socket with no filter and see if you hear noise then. (yes with no filter)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 06:32:19 PM by BritBrat »
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MollyCoddle

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Re: RouterStats and DMT not believed!!!!!
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2009, 06:47:25 PM »

>>Are you running two testers at the same time?
A.---I run Routerstats all the time I have my PC up. When I use DMT, I log in, capture, and come back out,

>>Because I don't think you can do that as you will have two login users.
A.---with same log-in, yes, off one PC.

>>Remove all phone/fax devices (do you have an alarm system connected to phone line?)
A.---No alarms, nothing.

>> plug the router into the test socket with no filter and see if you hear noise then. (yes with no filter).
A.---I can cannibalise an old phone to get the right lead for connecting the router to the telephone type socket, but give me a hint on listening if there will be no filter and the router is taking up the test socket?

I got it, I'll need to get a 2 to 1 adapter , will do
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 07:18:18 PM by MollyCoddle »
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BritBrat

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Re: RouterStats and DMT not believed!!!!!
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2009, 08:35:02 PM »

You have to have a filter on a phone but not on the router.

All I was trying to get you to do was isolate everything apart from one phone and router.

I don't think I was very clear before and never mentioned the phone and was thinking more of seeing the router stats than hearing the noise from the phone.

I guess you could do the quiet test then remove the phone just leaving the router overnight to see if it was any better.

I bet the problem is something simple.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 08:40:44 PM by BritBrat »
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MollyCoddle

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Re: RouterStats and DMT not believed!!!!!
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2009, 10:30:55 AM »

@BritBrat

I am grateful for your positivity. 

>>was thinking more of seeing the router stats than hearing the noise from the phone.
A.----I am going to leave the router plugged directly into the NTE-5 backplate tonight, nothing else in circuit and leave Routerstats all night.

However, the devil of a thing, I don't use the landline to make or recieve calls, so the last time I used the phone was to do a quiet test about 4 days ago. Last night and today, that helicopter sound has gone -- FIRST TIME SINCE LAST SEPTEMBER. Now I get a very very quiet white/pink noise. This would cheer me, yet the following CRC chart from yesterday deflated me as at some time after I turned off my PC, a re-sync took my conn rate down to 2592.

The Netgear log (yet again) does not show the re-sync. This lack of logging was another reason I was attempteding such a complete re-flash of software, yet on previous such occasions, my ISP claim to have received a 'User Requested' disconnect on their redius server.

>>I bet the problem is something simple.
Hope so, even if it means me looking a right idiot. I am going to leave Routerstats running overnight as mentioned, more info anyway!

Thanks again, MC

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« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 11:14:10 AM by MollyCoddle »
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BritBrat

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Re: RouterStats and DMT not believed!!!!!
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2009, 11:16:34 AM »

The 2nd graph looks like congestion to me but I am no expert.

Forget that thought it was speed but it is SNR.

If you now have no noise I would leave it a while to see what happens as it may settle down.

Hourly speed tests
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 11:25:52 AM by BritBrat »
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MollyCoddle

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Re: RouterStats and DMT not believed!!!!!
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2009, 11:45:28 AM »

>>leave it a while to see what happens as it may settle down.
A.---Router now connected direct to NTE-5 backplate, no filter, no NOTHING.

Interesting small change in the frequency response; before and after direct connection:-

Edit:- P.S. how are you gathering data for that chart?

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« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 11:48:01 AM by MollyCoddle »
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waltergmw

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Re: RouterStats and DMT not believed!!!!!
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2009, 11:51:56 AM »

Hi MC,

The second picture depicts Noise Margin, i.e. the amount of "freeboard", it suggests there is a significant increase in ambient noise from say mid afternoon onwards.
It also shows the resultant synchronising speed drop off from about 3,300 kbps at 15:45 down to about 500 kbps at about 22:00.

The CRC errors show peaks from about 18:30 to 19:15 and again from, roughly. 22:00 to 23:00

So these two pictures don't seem to be directly related. Graphs of other errors might provide better correlations ?

I do not think either is the same as BritBrat's speed test picture.
However the relatively gentle noise slope downwards over many hours doesn't seem to be directly related to a piece of plant being switched on.
It's almost as so the modem is gradually getting hot and bothered and running out of breath - i.e. the descrimination logic is becoming overloaded.

It's also unlikely that the actual internet throughput traffic, and speed if contention / traffic shaping happens more in the evening, would remain constant over such a long period.

Perhaps someone else can provide a different interpretation ?

Kind regards,
Walter

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waltergmw

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Re: RouterStats and DMT not believed!!!!!
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2009, 12:06:00 PM »

Hi MC,

I hope my previous note referring to your one earlier hasn't confused you.

From your new pictures it seems as there's been a good improvement with the higher frequency tones.
This might suggest your previous connection arrangement was introducing more noise ?

Kind regards,
Walter
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MollyCoddle

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Re: RouterStats and DMT not believed!!!!!
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2009, 12:12:16 PM »

@waltergmw

Not at all, just needed to use those grey things.

>>It also shows the resultant synchronising speed drop off from about 3,300 kbps at 15:45 down to about 500 kbps at about 22:00.
A.---This I do not see from the charts?

>>This might suggest your previous connection arrangement was introducing more noise ?
A.---Agreed, however if you view a freq response I posted earlier in the thread, its far from where it was.

Thanks, MC

Edited:- Anyway of automating the collection of Download speed data?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 12:15:35 PM by MollyCoddle »
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waltergmw

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Re: RouterStats and DMT not believed!!!!!
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2009, 01:51:24 PM »

Hi MC,

The Rx Noise margin picture shows sync speeds down the RHS margin.

I'm using routerstats lite running on a remote PC and www.logmein to monitor the stats remotely.
Here's one I prepared earlier !

Kind regards,
Walter

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