Kitz ADSL Broadband Information
adsl spacer  
Support this site
Home Broadband ISPs Tech Routers Wiki Forum
 
     
   Compare ISP   Rate your ISP
   Glossary   Glossary
 
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5

Author Topic: DMT & Thompson 585v7  (Read 31711 times)

waltergmw

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 2776
Re: DMT & Thompson 585v7
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2009, 07:33:18 PM »

Hi Kitz (and Azzaka),

It's still early days on this one and we're still in wiring and NTE5 mode at present.
Just to whet your appetite; it's interesting to note that we have the same signature noise drops to zero.
I'm using the same 585V7 and remote-monitored laptop.

You might like to know that we're getting quite notorious in the village, and I think with BT O as well.

Kind regards,
Walter

[attachment deleted by admin]
Logged

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33888
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: DMT & Thompson 585v7
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2009, 11:58:05 AM »

>> So you DID see my " It appears the issue was..." 

lol - I'm very aware that the reports that come back arent always full of info, nor always give a proper explanation :D


>>> Just to whet your appetite; it's interesting to note that we have the same signature noise drops to zero.

That looks more like some sort of impulse noise, but very different pattern from the other one.
Fridge or something thermostatically controlled?
Thats a very long line and is going to be very susceptible to noise :(
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

waltergmw

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 2776
Re: DMT & Thompson 585v7
« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2009, 03:30:14 PM »

@ Kitz

We now have a veritable pastoral symphony !  Nearly a flat calm and then all hell breaks loose in the early hours and up to mid day.
It remains to be seen what the cure is but how come such a long line has almost no noise and then goes wild and is still very bumpy as at 15:30 ?
Another interesting point is the higher speed for a short period around two crashes.
(Note this is the same 585V7 modem I used on the other line.)

My guess is still an intermittent line card fault

Kind regards,
Walter


http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/waltergmw/03-39Sat21Mar09pic3.png

http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/waltergmw/04-42Sat21Mar09pic4.jpg

http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/waltergmw/05-44Sat21Mar09pic5Crash1.jpg

http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/waltergmw/06-47Sat21Mar09pic6Crash2.jpg

http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/waltergmw/07-50Sat21Mar09pic7.jpg

http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/waltergmw/08-52Sat21Mar09pic8Crash3.jpg

http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/waltergmw/09-55Sat21Mar09pic2A.jpg

http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/waltergmw/12-00Sat21Mar098pic.jpg

http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/waltergmw/12-00Sat21Mar09Speedbumppic5C-1.png
« Last Edit: March 21, 2009, 03:36:18 PM by waltergmw »
Logged

roseway

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 43613
  • Penguins CAN fly
    • DSLstats
Re: DMT & Thompson 585v7
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2009, 04:22:23 PM »

It certainly looks like an intermittent line fault of some sort. It's very similar to experiences which I had on my line on a few occasions, and on these occasions there was a very obvious crackling on the telephone. I reported it to BT, but by the time they responded the crackling had gone and the ADSL connection was fine again.
Logged
  Eric

waltergmw

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 2776
Re: DMT & Thompson 585v7
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2009, 10:01:10 AM »

@ Kitz and Roseway,

Continuing with the saga, the line remains a little unstable with the SNRM varying between 5 dB and 11 dB.
As to be expected the noise margin increases when the sync speed decreases.
The modem has reset itself several times and occasionally I've done a manual reset.
This often produces a sync speed up in the 600 kbps range, but then the modem resets itself back down to 448.

With a line of this length (attn'n 63.5 dB) I believe the observed noise margin patterns to be normal usually.
Perhaps what's surprising is the almost flat noise lines before these events started.
I assume that, as part of the initialisation after a reset, the modem negotiates with the DSLAM and the noise discrimination logic between the two define the tones and bit loading which then is also reflected in the current sync speed.
This logic then continues to monitor the individual tones loading them as has been determined until there is a major loss of data, whereupon the modem decides to reset itself.

I did just wonder if there was a sort of positive fault with the noise discrimination logic falsely giving the previous flat lines ?
I'm always a bit sceptical in these situations where you are observing the equipment and systems themselves rather than with independent test equipment.
However that would clearly be difficult to do when you're relying on the modem and DSLAM to be self-regulating in an inherently noisy environment.

Any corrections, comments or ideas would be welcomed.

Kind regards,
Walter
Logged

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33888
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: DMT & Thompson 585v7
« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2009, 01:21:10 PM »

With a line card fault (due to the no of lines that will be on the card) I would expect if it was a line card fault for it to be more frequent.  An exception would be the NExT example I gave in my post above, where the x-Talk is being generated from a neighbouring line.

During the 'bad' period.. it could be typical of intermitant REIN... or like eric says an intermittant line fault.

>> This logic then continues to monitor the individual tones loading them as has been determined until there is a major loss of data, whereupon the modem decides to reset itself.

Correct, resync occurs when (a) major loss of data (router enters serious alarm state) and/or (b) Noise becomes so bad that insufficient bits can be loaded.  Event (b) can and often will cause (a) to occur.

What the graphs are clearly showing is at times the line becomes 'noisy'.  This could be Noise through EMI or it could be reduction in Signal strength cause by an intermittent fault on the physical line.

When SNR starts being erratic, your router can go into overdrive with the bit swapping process, it may eventually shut some tones down as unusable if the SNR gets too low in those sub-channels.  This can then result in there not being sufficient channels to support the original Bit Allocation from last sync.. then if the line cant support enough bits it will eventually have to drop and resync at a lower speed.
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

orainsear

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 635
Re: DMT & Thompson 585v7
« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2009, 05:16:03 PM »

Does the SNR margin fluctuate like that at similar times each day?
Logged

waltergmw

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 2776
Re: DMT & Thompson 585v7
« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2009, 05:26:05 PM »

@ Kitz Thanks very much.

@ orainsear There were a few days of very "calm" noise margin graphs, then the storms and now it seem like a typical noisy line as you"ll see below.

Kind regards,
Walter



[attachment deleted by admin]
Logged

waltergmw

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 2776
Re: DMT & Thompson 585v7
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2009, 11:38:04 PM »

@ kitz

>>or it could be reduction in Signal strength caused by an intermittent fault on the physical line.

It's interesting to note that the "noise" pattern has become much less erratic after we did a quiet line test.
BT Retail / Openreach are investigating tomorrow.

Kind regards,
Walter



[attachment deleted by admin]
Logged

waltergmw

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 2776
Re: DMT & Thompson 585v7
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2009, 08:02:12 PM »

The BT Retail / Openreach engineer reported no fault found on the telephone side. However I managed to chat to our local "ezzer" today who immediately suggested an intermittent high resistance fault.
I had "filtered" my mind to think only about the ADSL part, but it's now obvious that we might cause additional disturbances by going on and off hook as the RMS current could well induce another bout of spikes. The circuit has been up to 704 kbps and down to 135 kbps like a yoyo today and the modem has reset around 40 times. For the last two hours it's been almost as flat as a pancake on 704. Patience is a virtue but we'll get there hopefully before too long.

If anybody knows of any other tricks I'd be glad to hear of them.

Kind regards,
Walter
Logged

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33888
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: DMT & Thompson 585v7
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2009, 08:28:24 PM »

Lifting the phone off the hook  sometimes does clear an intermittent HR fault. 
In fact if the adsl works better when the phone is in use this is indicative of a HR or High Open type fault

From ~ adsl only works when the phone is being used

Quote
Possibly a fault on the actual phone line perhaps due to worn cables or water on the line.
There may be times when a cable or joint is only slightly damaged/corroded and shows no immediate problem, however the damage is sufficient to increase resistance on the line.
When the phone line is in use, it generates a small electrical current which is needed to carry the voice signal. This current helps reduce resistance on the line and can be sufficient to "bridge the gap" just enough to carry the adsl signal.


 

Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

roseway

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 43613
  • Penguins CAN fly
    • DSLstats
Re: DMT & Thompson 585v7
« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2009, 10:39:57 PM »

When I was having trouble with a crackly line, I sometimes got some temporary relief by doing a 17070 ringback.
Logged
  Eric

waltergmw

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 2776
Re: DMT & Thompson 585v7
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2009, 09:49:51 AM »

Hello everybody,

SUCCESS AT LAST !

I suspect that, thanks to my portable test equipment (laptop accessed remotely with logmein.com, running DMT and Routerstats lite plus my 585v7) and our very helpful ISP Z,
BT have changed yet another line card in THCN with quite astonishing results for a 63.5 dB line - see below.

The downside is that it has taken just over 4 weeks to achieve two line card changes.
However our local BT Openreach gurus are now aware that we have the test equipment and do listen to us once the BT dinosaur has woken up.

It does beg the question as to how we could get BT to monitor their line cards without waiting for all their customers to grind through all their call centres and everybody dismantling their master sockets.
I suppose from BT's viewpoint they observe so many cases of bad wiring they'd rather let the faults take longer to isolate in the first place.
If only it was possible to have a rational discussion with might halve the number of BT site visits.

I am now quite a happy chappy !

Kind regards,
Walter

[attachment deleted by admin]
Logged

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33888
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: DMT & Thompson 585v7
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2009, 11:17:33 AM »

Interesting that yet again this has been resolved by replacing the linecard.

What I am interested in is finding out why..  and how... that im both these cases...  something that so very clearly points to intermittent REIN is being resolved by replacing line cards.

I may be wrong but unless there was a whole batch of linecards installed on that DSLAM/MSAN that were faulty why it should materialise with these symptoms.  I still feel that something more like NeXT from a particular line would be causing something like this to occur - otherwise surely it wouldnt be so intermittent.  With the no of users on a linecard you'd expect this to be far more noticeable and consistent.

Azzaka, are you able to find out any more info from BT about this...   I'd love a technical explanation because something just doesnt feel right about this so far that I cant put my finger on..  and I wonder if there's something a bit more deep rooted... or even conspiracy time one particular line on that dslam is having causing massive NeXT when that particular line connects and causing problems for any neighbouring lines on the same linecard...  and they are curing this by moving lines around to different cards.
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

waltergmw

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 2776
Re: DMT & Thompson 585v7
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2009, 12:49:21 PM »

@ Kitz and Leo,

I'll list below all that I know about the two lines.

The first was Sue in the village centre off cabinet 19 with a line distance of about 4 km.
DMT shows Sue's DSLAM as >>Vendor ID: P----<<
Herewith her 585v7 log:-

Info
 01 day 06:43:38 (since last boot)
FIREWALL event (1 of 12): modified rules
Info
 01 day 06:43:38 (since last boot)
FIREWALL event (1 of 24): created rules
Info
 01 day 06:38:39 (since last boot)
LOGIN User Administrator logged in on [HTTP]
(from 192.168.1.64)
Info
 00:01:01 (since last boot)
 FIREWALL event (1 of 6): deleted rules
Info
 00:01:02 (since last boot)
 GRP Default destination is routed via gateway
nnn.155.35.179
Warning
 00:01:01 (since last boot)
PPP link up (Internet) [nnn.155.35.179]
Info
 00:01:01 (since last boot)
 PPP CHAP Chap receive success : authentication ok
Info
 00:00:59 (since last boot)
 PPP CHAP Receive challenge (rhost = ERX3.Reading2)
Info
 00:00:46 (since last boot)
 xDSL linestate up (ITU-T G.992.1; downstream: 2720
kbit/s, upstream: 448 kbit/s; output Power Down: 18.0 dBm, Up: 12.5 dBm; line Attenuation
Down: 55.0 dB, Up: 31.0 dB; snr Margin Down: 14.0 dB, Up: 16.0 dB)
Warning
 00:00:28 (since last boot)
DHCS server up
Info
 00:00:28 (since last boot)
 FIREWALL event (1 of 1): deleted rules
Info
 00:00:28 (since last boot)
 FIREWALL level changed to Standard.
Info
 00:00:28 (since last boot)
 WIRELESS interface turned off.
Info
 00:00:24 (since last boot)
 WIRELESS automatic channel selection done (channel =
6)
Info
 00:00:16 (since last boot)
 FIREWALL event (1 of 1): modified rules
Info
 00:00:16 (since last boot)
 FIREWALL event (1 of 1): created rules
Info
 00:00:04 (since last boot)
 WIRELESS interface turned on.
Error
00:00:03 (since last boot)
 [CWMP: 0:00:02.820] setting cwmp defaults
Warning
 00:00:02 (since last boot)
KERNEL Cold restart

The second was James off Cabinet 20 with a line length probably around 7 km
DMT shows James' DSLAM as >>Texas Instruments<<

It's interesing to note Sue's PPP CHAP Receive challenge (rhost = ERX3.Reading2),
whereas James' says PPP CHAP Receive challenge (rhost = ERX13.Kingston3)
A picture of part of James' log is attached below as is the last Prodigynet DSLAM data I have for THCN.

I hope this helps but if there's anything else you can train me to do with the 585v7 you've only to ask.

Kind regards,
Walter




[attachment deleted by admin]
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5
 

anything