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[kitz]

I found it bizarre that they were happy to pay the Openreach bill despite already having detailed evidence that the problem was in their network.

They are a lot more reserved about doing so these days - preferring to give the customer the run around performing all the tests. 
In reality the BTw charge of circa £150 was introduced a couple of years ago specifically to stop ISPs such as Tiscali sending out an engineer as the easy cop out... well that and the amount of ISPs that never performed basic trouble-shooting incorrectly. A couple of years back, in a conversation with an SFI engineer*  implied that most of the ISP reported problems were either due to ISP lack of central capacity or insecure wireless networks.

Since the charge has been introduced then Tiscali are now much more loath to send out an engineer..  even in those cases when an Engineer is sometime obviously required. :/


*When I say SFI - I mean the 'old type SFI engineer' who were based at central locations whose job it was to specifically investigate Serious FAults.

[waltergmw]

Gentlefolk,

Another approach to investigate bottlenecks which sometimes works is to do a Traceroute to say BBC.
This isn't always as useful as it might sound as some ISPs have less decipherable node names, and some nodes are hidden anyway.
However if you record the logs you can compare timings at least on the line entries you can see, even if you're not able to decipher where they are. I would also suspect the over-loaded pipes are buried deep inside the network bowels of the network.

As an example I've copied below the output I get on my NTL / Virgin Media cable connection, but have edited out my IP address in line 2.

Traceroute has started ...

traceroute to bbc.co.uk (212.58.224.138), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets
 1  192.168.0.1 (192.168.0.1)  1.526 ms  0.907 ms  0.765 ms
 2  aa.bbb.ccc.d (aa.bbb.ccc.d)  9.771 ms  8.215 ms  8.048 ms
 3  glfd-t2cam1-b-ge912.network.virginmedia.net (80.4.30.213)  19.931 ms  13.881 ms  27.615 ms
 4  glfd-t3core-1b-ge-010-0.network.virginmedia.net (195.182.175.249)  34.721 ms  11.867 ms  28.195 ms
 5  gfd-bb-b-ge-220-0.network.virginmedia.net (213.105.175.89)  10.868 ms  8.983 ms  11.140 ms
 6  redb-ic-1-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net (62.253.185.78)  10.713 ms  10.604 ms  10.973 ms
 7  212.58.239.249 (212.58.239.249)  8.893 ms  25.241 ms  11.952 ms
 8  212.58.238.149 (212.58.238.149)  19.827 ms  10.295 ms  11.833 ms
 9  * * *
10  * *


Kind regards,
Walter

[kitz]

A lot of routing (particularly on IPStream) is hidden by something called L2TP tunnelling, which hides the routing from the exchange to the ISP.

Tiscali also prioritise their network so that time dependant traffic is given priority and doesnt show up as latency.
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/legal/traffic-management-policy/

Things therefore have to be very dire before it will ever show up as being on tiscali's network if you do a trace.

The method you describe though does general work well to see if there is any bottlenecks outside the ISP network.

[waltergmw]

Hi Kitz,

Thanks for the clarification.

I wonder whether it would be too daunting a task, or too bandwidth-hungry, for your site to become the server for something such as

http://openmaniak.com/iperf.php
 
which those in difficulty could use at differing times of the day for comparitive tests. If this, or another similar concept, is viable how much better it would be to demonstrate to those shy ISPs that there really is a bandwidth problem to solve.

Kind regards,
Walter

[roseway]

It's a nice idea, but without substantial funding it would be too much to take on I think.

[Weaver]

I try to explain "cheap deals" to my customers using choice parables

"Would you choose the cheapest bride / surgeon / daughter-in-law ?"

I believe that my cheesy parables still need more work.

But certainly I think its true that if users truly concentrate on looking for the cheapest, that's precisely what they'll get and nothing more. It seems that customers often would like to believe that something can really be on sale for nothing at all and suppliers' participate in the supporting the fantasy with users' tacit encouragement.

[jeffbb]

HI

As Kitz says it is the point I was trying to make . That particular ISP's Forum is an eye opener (good for a laugh ). If I had not come across Kitz forum where I have learnt about Stats and how to read and understand them ,I would be forever reconnecting to the master socket ,unplugging everything etc etc . whereas I am not wasting my time ,just waiting patiently till I can flee to a better ISP. 
Kitz are you going to get access ??  and put the cat amongs the pigeons .

Weaver : Unfortunately a lot of tiscali users would have just moved from dial up . Adsl problems are not understood by the majority of the public.  .


Regards Jeff

[kitz]

@ walter

I have dabbled with iperf in the past when looking at network problems, but as eric rightly says bandwidth would be a problem for this site.
The (main) site is very busy and bandwidth costs are something I do have to consider.  As it stands the site is non-profit making and anything from ads does get ploughed back into the site running costs.  Whilst I have had many/several offers in the past to help with hosting costs theyve been turned down as I dont want the site to be too affiliated with any particular ISP. Nor do I want to have to put up any more ads than necessary.  AFAIK (please feel free to correct me) but theres only this site and TBB that manage to remain truly independent as a large broadband information site... and I am loathe to have to look outside to cover hosting costs. 

I do realise I could also get a lot cheaper non-UK hosting too.. but being a UK based site I like the fact that my present hosts (and want) are UK based and I feel that I do get good service from them and theyve helped me through several upgrades doing a lot of the work for me... so IMHO its money well spent that I can contact them personally 24/7.  Its currently ticking over nicely but the next step would have to be a dedicated server and that costs mega bucks...

@ weaver

.. which nicely leads on to cheap deals..  yes you generally get what you pay for.  Whilst I realise that there are many that do only need a basic adsl service for mail/browsing, then when it comes to wanting anything more then cheap doesnt always cut it.  Unfortunately far too many fall for the 'Unlimited' which is my biggest gripe with certain ISPs.


@ jeff

lol yes..  but my account hasnt been approved yet.  However I dont intend spending a lot of time there, but it would be nice on occasion to say the odd thing or too.  Nor do I intend to stir up poo. 

[waltergmw]

Hi Kitz,

I take your points entirely and your site is one of vital importance for the likes of me struggling in the Sticks around Ewhurst.
I was afraid that bandwidth costs would be prohibitive.
I admire your policy re staying in the UK; the last thing we want is Russian or other unmentionables infecting the site.

Re your comments to weaver.
One of the major problems I have with many in Ewhurst is that they have no comprehension of speed or browser response times. Many just glibly accept what they get and particularly those on Tiscali try at a less busy time. Some are quite astonished when I throw out their USB Frogs ! However where I'm asked to install broadband on the extremities I insist that the client has a Zen service. I know there are other good ones around but once you get to know the guys involved and their support service facilities, especially as I can acces them remotely in most cases, I want to stay with the angels I know, rather than the devils I don't !

Here endeth .... !

Kind regards,
Walter

[kitz]

>> is that they have no comprehension of speed or browser response times.

Thats not an uncommon problem and something I see too.  I even know someone who was quite happy on dial-up - after all if you only collect mail and surf on occasions then it doesnt seem to matter to them.
However it annoyed the hell out of me - since I was the one who would have to go round and install updates etc etc because slow speeds just dont hack it and I dont like sitting there for half an hour whilst an important update or piece of software gets updated. 

[kitz]

Kitz are you going to get access ?? 

Oh well that lastest for all of half a day before I got slapped wrists for making a few posts.
All of them technically correct and none of them derogatory to tiscali..

Hope they had fun deleting them.. because I didnt do or say anything wrong.

[roseway]

What a useless bunch of idiots they seem to be.

[HPsauce]

Oh well that lastest for all of half a day before I got slapped wrists for making a few posts.
All of them technically correct and none of them derogatory to tiscali..

Hope they had fun deleting them.. because I didnt do or say anything wrong.

Same experience as I had, if you recall my earlier comment.
They don't take kindly to the truth, however well it's presented, if it exposes them at all.

I got banned for (very politely and respectfully) stating the truth with clear evidence. 

[jeffbb]

Hi

Which would be  worse ,That they are so incapable that they believe what they are saying is correct OR they are just playing customers for fools ?

Regards Jeff

[waltergmw]

Although it must be reasonably obvious to any potential purchaser, I suspect they just don't want any publicity which could be negatively interpreted - especially if it happens to be true !

Kind regards,
Walter