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Author Topic: connect speed /download question  (Read 11469 times)

jeffbb

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connect speed /download question
« on: January 16, 2009, 07:59:29 PM »

Hi
I was wondering 
  If you have a synch speed  ie 5000Kbps and a receive attennuation of about 35db .Is it possible to have wiring problems that would result in  download speed say around 750Kbps ?.

As I understand the synch speed is negotiated by the router/modem so any problems with the connection would not allow a high synch speed ?

The reason I am asking this is that I have visited my ISP forum(guess who) and it seems they totally ignore Stats that are provided but go through this tortuous check list of things to check . Even when presented with data showing that the download problems have just started  but the stats are still good .

I hope this makes sense ?

Regards Jeff















 
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HPsauce

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Re: connect speed /download question
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2009, 08:31:55 PM »

If you have a synch speed  ie 5000Kbps and a receive attennuation of about 35db .Is it possible to have wiring problems that would result in  download speed say around 750Kbps ?
If you specifically mean TELEPHONE wiring then it's unlikely, but not impossible.
You'd need to look at the detailed error stats from the router.

Of course you CAN have wireless network issues or computer misconfiguration problems (e.g. MTU/RWIN) that can cause this very easily.

Not to mention that speed tests are notoriously unreliable. ;)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2009, 09:07:20 PM by HPsauce »
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waltergmw

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Re: connect speed /download question
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2009, 09:37:48 PM »

Hi Jeff,

You haven't told us what noise margin is recorded.
Are you using
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest.html
and if not do another speed test there as well.
Then compare that with one from
http://www.speedtester.bt.com/
(Privided you haven't used it within the last three hours.)

Kind regards,
Walter
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kitz

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Re: connect speed /download question
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2009, 12:22:04 AM »

As HP said.  Unlikely - otherwise it would show in your HEC/CRC errors. SNRM would also be low.

If youre stats are good - then knowing which ISP you mean, then its highly likely they are stalling the obvious.
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kitz

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Re: connect speed /download question
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2009, 12:30:43 AM »

PS
Walter - hi and welcome :)

I presume Jeff means ones like this

Quote
xDSL linestate up ITU-T G.992.1;
downstream: 7616 kbit/s, upstream: 448 kbit/s;
output power Down: 19.5 dBm, Up: 11.5 dBm;
line attenuation Down: 15.0 dB, Up: 9.0 dB;
snr margin Down: 16.0 dB, Up: 22.0 dB

http://www.speedtest.net/result/388091598.png
11 Jan 09 0825z 250 kbs down 369 kbs up

http://www.speedtest.net/result/388134269.png
11 Jan 09 1048z 245 down 360 up

http://www.speedtest.net/result/388282564.png
11 Jan 09 1628z 245 down 352 up

http://www.speedtest.net/result/388364423.png
11 Jan 09 1848z 254 down 335 up

Filters changed, cabling fettled, christmas lights removed.

I should add that I can see the exchange from my window (it's 748m away).

Sometimes when I look at the replies on that forum I wish I had a login  :lol:

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HPsauce

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Re: connect speed /download question
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2009, 08:49:02 AM »

Sometimes when I look at the replies on that forum I wish I had a login  :lol:
If it's the one I think you mean you can just sign up for a free dial-up account and then register.  ;)

Had to do that when I got banned for (very politely and respectfully) stating the truth with clear evidence.  :-X
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kitz

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Re: connect speed /download question
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2009, 10:37:42 AM »

lol HP - tempting :D
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jeffbb

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Re: connect speed /download question
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2009, 01:00:43 PM »

Hi
Kitz you got it in one  ;D
Iam still getting DL speed problems at peak times but its pointless trying to talk to them . I will be patient for another 2 or 3 months then BYE BYE ISP hello new ISP. ;D
Hope you are feeling better  :)
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kitz

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Re: connect speed /download question
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2009, 02:29:14 PM »

>> its pointless trying to talk to them

Unfortunately it would appear so :/

>> I will be patient for another 2 or 3 months then BYE BYE ISP hello new ISP.

lol Ive been watching you count down for the past few months.... 
and the unfortunate thing in your own case is that both you and they know what the problem is, its just that they wont do anything about it :/

>> Hope you are feeling better

Still not right - but I am on the mend thanks :)



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Ezzer

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Re: connect speed /download question
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2009, 03:38:08 PM »

looks like a throttle back which may be at the dlm at the exchange. stats are ok. actual sync to the exchange is at a high speed yet the full thoughput speed isn't just slow (an isp issue) but is act either around 248kbps or 128kbps.

The cause of this would have been some severe stats/errors drops of sync which has alerted the dlm and if bad enough on the odd rare occasion would cause a throttle back.

This should clear it self automaticaly if thing stay ok stats wise for a while although this can occasionaly get stuck so needs a nudge via bt wholesale (assuming your dsl connection is not via a llu then it's just your isp).

In order to confirm this is the case wour isp needs to contact bt wholesale to check this and clear it) as long as whats caused the throttle back isn't still lurking around ready to pounce this should sort the problem

Throttle back in this sence is like going down a motor way when you note there's black ice on the road, although you can do 70mph you'll do 15mph so as not to fall off the road all together untill such time you confident the road conditions are safe  and clear so you can speed up. better a slow connection than no sync at all.
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jeffbb

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Re: connect speed /download question
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2009, 06:32:54 PM »

Hi Ezzer
The point I was asking  was "Is it possible to have wiring problems that would result in  download speed say around 750Kbps ?.The reason for that was that IF stats are good  with good synch ,snr ok etc.then home cabling or line faults are unlikely . Yet on that forum(not mentioned ) the Help ?? people always just play for time asking about faceplates , internal wiring etc ,when all the evidence ie synch ,snr and attenuation are all good . As you pointed out there may be some other issues ?. the most likely is being contention or throtling  especially when there is an obvious time related problem with downloads but not with the stats . :) I would love to see Kitz in action on that forum >:D. Mind you It wouldnt be for long as they don't like criticism.As HP knows

Regards Jeff
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Ezzer

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Re: connect speed /download question
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2009, 07:08:41 PM »

The internal wiring is one of the most likely points where problems with dsl will be picked up from and in certain cases could cause the problem your having.

What ever the problem with broadband any one may have the first thing to try whenever possible is to connect via the test socket in the master socket (nte) as removing the face plate disconnects any internal wiring so take this out of the equation.

If then you get a better result you can either take certain actions to disconnect the offending wiring from the dsl signal.

The problem with a throttleback situation if thats what you have is the current stats seem ok so its difficult to tell has the problem dissapeared or is it intermitent and about to strike again. in which case trying to find out if the internal wiring is causing the problem become hit or miss. Idealy you'll need to catch things as the stats go squirly and then try a comparison with and without the internal wiring connected. Unfortunately you situation if my assumptions are correct becomes exteamley infuriating.

If your stats stay stable then get you isp to check if there is a throttle back situation which can be nudged off. Hopefully if it was a one off (or christmas decorations nearby, so roll on next year  :()

If anything has caused some venerability to the problem then the most likely cause would be the internal wiring. It can be perfectly good materials and fitted absolutely correctly, yet still act as an antennea ready to pick up the right interference. Some people fit the full dsl ssfp front plate even though at the time it makes no difference to the performance, but it guards against any future potential problem from the internal wiring.

If your going to look at the internal wiring the things to look out for. Clean intenals of the sockets, no corrosion/moisture. anything verdegre (copper green fuzzy coatings anywhere)

The wires terminated don;t have "tails" that is a long excess of wire sicking out of the otherside of the termination. The IDC style terminations (the type where the wire is pushed into a slot to make the connection.) have a slight step on the white plastic moulding which holds the wires. the excess wire is ment to be trimmed to about the length of the step. anything longer can act like an antennea.

Any spare wire are not "coiled back" Its an old practice to neatly tidy things up where the spare pairs of wires are wound around the end of the cable so they stay neatly out of the way. Now a days i the disgital age this can pick up signale on the used pair of wires and amplifi the signal back within the cable causing problems. if you find this unwind them.

Coiled wires in nice neat loops, tidy but a good loop antennea, flatted the loops so any spare wires just go back and forth a couple of times.

Inetnal cable running paralell to mains cables foa any length within 50mm. as this increases the amount of noise picked up from any mains noise, comms and power cable s best runa as far apart if running along the same route.

Power cables coiled round and around particuarly near any comms cables, this amplifies any noise via the mains. Tidy but can be a problem

You dsl cable connecting your router to the socket, is it coiled up, unravel it and avoid runnig it along side any other cables for any long lenght

Is there any thing plugged into the telephony thats unfiltered, could you have an external bell hardwired or an alarm system.

Star wiring, that is any extention wiring comming off the lead-in before the master socket. Defeates the object of disconnecting the face plate on an nte to diagnose any problems.

Are all the extention socket with a capacitor. this idealy should only be in the nte and the microfilters. If thing have been wired up using only 2 wires and no bell wire after the master socket then a socket with capacitor is needed to get the phone there to ring, unfortunately can cause a capacitance inbalance so making the internal wiring more likely to behave as a radio.
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kitz

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Re: connect speed /download question
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2009, 12:35:27 AM »

Ezzer, the forum we are on about is littered with users having good stats. 
eg full sync speed, little CRC/HEC errors, yet each and every evening their speeds reduce to around 500kbps.

Its well known that Tiscali's central pipes are not in a good state.  A couple of years ago when I wrote an article for another site called 'The capacity report' about the state of adsl and its pricing.. I was informed by a reliable source that back then they were running their centrals at 150:1.. and this has much increased since the advent of maxdsl without the ISP much increasing their capacity.

Even way back in the early days when adsl was very much in its infancy we had big problems at this exchange and after much long conversations with SFI in Wolves the cause of our problem was found.  Now bear in mind that there were many users across all ISPs that were reporting this problem yet when BTw eventually resolved it.. all users were once again happy and getting full speeds.  Well all aside from those on Tiscali.

On occasions I read the Tiscali forums and well I cant beleive some of the responses given to their poor customers who are given the real run around.

What jeff was asking is basically if youve got lots of users who have perfect stats with no errors, yet speeds each evening are dropping to around 500kbps.  Then is it likely to be due to the wiring... or is it the ISP fobbing the user off.
If pushed hard enough you will see the odd admission from a couple of their reps that yes that their centrals are 'underperforming'


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HPsauce

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Re: connect speed /download question
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2009, 09:02:08 AM »

yet each and every evening their speeds reduce to around 500kbps.
And those are the lucky ones!  >:D

When I was there (over a year ago now) I used to drop to literally dial-up speeds around tea-time and Outlook would time out trying to talk to my email servers. Yet during the middle of the day I could get the full 8mbps.

I think since then they've got a tiny bit cleverer at balancing the resources at peak times, but are still obviously seriously inadequate.

I found the offshore call centres totally useless at understanding the problem; they even sent a BT broadband (not phone) engineer to look at my line - we had a good laugh once his tests proved what I already knew. I found it bizarre that they were happy to pay the Openreach bill despite already having detailed evidence that the problem was in their network.

Only the MK staff on the forums seemed to acknowledge and understand what was going on, but they were very cautious about giving any real information. Sounds like they still are.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 09:04:12 AM by HPsauce »
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waltergmw

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Re: connect speed /download question
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2009, 10:04:24 AM »

Given that they have been up for sale for a significant time and that each prospective purchaser has reduced their offer price it suggests that Tiscali's pricing structure is not viable in the long term. Perhaps in this econcomic climate we should all wish for the inevitable ?

Andrew Fergusion of TBB made a remark about "Cheap as Chips" some time ago which sums up the choice customers must make.

Kind regards,
Walter
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