Kitz ADSL Broadband Information
adsl spacer  
Support this site
Home Broadband ISPs Tech Routers Wiki Forum
 
     
   Compare ISP   Rate your ISP
   Glossary   Glossary
 
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 14

Author Topic: ADSL Max query  (Read 57820 times)

happy37

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 249
ADSL Max query
« on: January 12, 2009, 11:20:43 AM »

Hello everyone

Am on the 1mb fixed ADSL service with Virgin Media at the moment and all is well.

However, I will be switching over to the Max service on Thursday this week and would like to know what speeds I can expect with my line stats:-

I'm more than happy with my fixed service, yet, as I said, I have also switched to using a Netgear DG834GSP router.

What do you think?

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 1152 kbps 288 kbps
Line Attenuation 53 db 15.5 db
Noise Margin 12 db 25 db

What speeds can I expect with these stats, and is there any room for improvement?

The downstream Noise Margin changes at various times of the day, and I have seen it go upto 21db...should this not be static, and is all this changing up and down normal?

My phone and other bits and pieces are set up as follows:-

1. Cordless phone - plugged into filter.
2. Fax machine - plugged into filter (rarely used though, and it's only switched on when needed)
3. Sky box - filtered as per the above.
4. Router - plugged straight into phone socket via the cord using a plugin lead/socket...no filter used. (Should I be using a filter here or not?)

I have also noticed that there is a Block Terminal Connector by the front foor of the property - am I able to open this or not to see if this is all wired OK, or is this BT property and only they can check?

http://kitz.co.uk/adsl/btsockets.htm

Have also checked round the house at the weekend and checked the BT sockets to see how they are.

As I don’t have a BT Master socket, it's just one of the ordinary type ones and it was put in by a BT engineer mate of mine, so I know that one's OK.

However, I opened up the socket that the fax machine is connected to and found that wire 3 was connected. I snipped that one out carefully.

All the other sockets are newly wired, so they are all okay.

Please feel free to add any other information that you think may be relevant.

Thanks for your help - look forward to your response.

Regards

happy37

Logged

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33881
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: ADSL Max query
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2009, 12:03:32 PM »

Hi and welcome

With a good 53dB atten line you are looking at a maximum sync speed of around 4Mbps - see max speed calculator.

However, the maximum speed calc is based on a 6dB Target SNR, and your current Noise Margin of 12dB doesnt really have 'too much play'.

Quote
The downstream Noise Margin changes at various times of the day, and I have seen it go upto 21db...should this not be static, and is all this changing up and down normal?

A variation of 9dB Noise margin isnt unusual on longer lines, but when it comes to dslMax you will find that this can affect your max sync speed.  If it varies that much then its an indication of a noisy line and possibly picking up some interference somewhere.

Bit of light reading time I'm afraid - with a variation of that much then it will be useful for you to know and understand the difference between SNR, SNR Margin and Target SNR... and just how they can and will affect your line.

Quote
Router - plugged straight into phone socket via the cord using a plugin lead/socket...no filter used. (Should I be using a filter here or not?)

Yes, the adsl filter helps terminate the adsl signals and stop reflections back down the line.
Its also often worth double filtering fax machines if you have a spare - plug a filter into a filter- this is a trick known to help many lines that have a fax machine.

Quote
Block Terminal Connector by the front foor of the property - am I able to open this or not to see if this is all wired OK, or is this BT property and only they can check?

Yes its ok to open it and have a look, however dont touch/move any of the wires - particularly the A+B that comes from the drop wire.


Quote
As I don’t have a BT Master socket, it's just one of the ordinary type ones and it was put in by a BT engineer mate of mine,

There should still be one socket somewhere that is designated the master, but these are often harder to distinguish if you dont have an NTE5.  The master socket will be the one that has the ring capacitor.

Quote
I opened up the socket that the fax machine is connected to and found that wire 3 was connected. I snipped that one out carefully.

Good stuff - check and remove others if necessary - even if newly wired there's the possibility that the ring wire could still be connected to one of them.
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

happy37

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 249
Re: ADSL Max query
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2009, 01:14:37 PM »

kitz

Thanks for your reply - I have made a point of what you have said and will follow up on that...i.e. plugging the router back in via a filter, and also maybe trying to double filter the fax machine.

Having said that, if I decide to not go down that route again, should I not just ask my BT engineer friend to install a NTE-5 filtered faceplate instead?

Please provide links so that I can see what these look like - what are the benefits of having a faceplate?

(I know that I won't have to plug filters into every socket where something is connected, yet what else?)

Quote
As I don’t have a BT Master socket, it's just one of the ordinary type ones and it was put in by a BT engineer mate of mine,

There should still be one socket somewhere that is designated the master, but these are often harder to distinguish if you don’t have an NTE5.  The master socket will be the one that has the ring capacitor.
Quote

As per the above, I think that I will get him to check that out - can you not fit a filtered faceplate even though a Master socket is not fitted?

I will either check all of the other sockets myself or get him to look for me (hopefully before Thursday), and I will report back as to how things go.

Thanks for your help - if you have anything else to add, please feel free to do so.

Regards

happy37








« Last Edit: January 12, 2009, 01:18:58 PM by happy37 »
Logged

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33881
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: ADSL Max query
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2009, 02:15:05 PM »

The older style LJUs can only be converted to an NTE-5 box by BT Openreach Engineer and BT takes an extremely dim view (and charge) if you've attempted to DIY.
They will know because only BT can supply the proper BT logo ones. 
There is a way that you can legally do it yourself and thats by following the instructions on the bottom of this page

However, since you have a friend who is a BT engineer, he may be able to get hold of a BT NTE-5 and fit it for you. ;) 
Once the NTE-5 is installed you can then add adsl filtered NTE5 faceplates yourself.

Quote
Please provide links so that I can see what these look like - what are the benefits of having a faceplate?

The adsl filtered faceplates are the best way to improve your line as it filters the 2 different frequency signals at source.
Theres more info and pictures of NTe5 faceplates on this page
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/socket.htm

Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

happy37

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 249
Re: ADSL Max query
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2009, 02:24:05 PM »

Quote
The older style LJUs can only be converted to an NTE-5 box by BT Openreach Engineer and BT takes an extremely dim view (and charge) if you've attempted to DIY.
They will know because only BT can supply the proper BT logo ones.
Quote


Funny you say that - I haven't attempted to DIY at all...I'll probably get my mate to do so for me    ;)

Please let me know also - if the ADSL/voice signals are filtered “at source” by fitting a NTE-5 BT socket - am I right in thinking that once that is done, then I won't have to use any filters at all in the house for fax/Sky/PC etc...please advise?

Thanks and regards

Logged

roseway

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 43472
  • Penguins CAN fly
    • DSLstats
Re: ADSL Max query
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2009, 02:30:46 PM »

Quote
Please let me know also - if the ADSL/voice signals are filtered “at source” by fitting a NTE-5 BT socket - am I right in thinking that once that is done, then I won't have to use any filters at all in the house for fax/Sky/PC etc...please advise?

That's correct, although extra filters won't do any harm, and it sometimes helps to have an extra filter for the Sky box (often a source of interference problems).

[Edit] I misread the question - see HPSauce comment below.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2009, 04:41:35 PM by roseway »
Logged
  Eric

happy37

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 249
Re: ADSL Max query
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2009, 02:41:41 PM »

Eric

Thanks for that!!! - will pop back in due course to let you all know how it goes.....

Regards

Logged

HPsauce

  • Helpful
  • Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2606
Re: ADSL Max query
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2009, 04:29:24 PM »

if the ADSL/voice signals are filtered “at source” by fitting a NTE-5 BT socket
No, they are not. :o

To do this you need to fit a filtered faceplate to the NTE5A in place of the user-removeable lower section and reattach any extension wiring to the appropriate terminations on the back of faceplate.

There are different designs, some providing unfiltered and filtered extension capabilities. All that I have seen have 2 external sockets on the front - RJ11 for broadband and BT-style for (filtered) phone.
Logged

roseway

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 43472
  • Penguins CAN fly
    • DSLstats
Re: ADSL Max query
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2009, 04:43:51 PM »

You're quite right HP, I misread the question. If an NTE5 with a filtered faceplate is fitted, then my answer above would be correct.
Logged
  Eric

jazz

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
Re: ADSL Max query
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2009, 05:48:01 PM »

Those figures for line attenuation and SNR are very similar to mine.  I get max synch of about 4500kbps with it usually being rock solid at 3776kbps so I get a BT profile of 3Mb.  It may not be as fast as Billy Whizz (if you ever read the Beano!) but it is a much better service than I had on 1Mb fixed last a few years ago.

I had similar concerns to yours at that time about whether I would see a real benefit moving from a fixed line but I think it is well worth it.  Once you get up to 3Mb or so then marginal increases/decreases in speed don't seem to me to make a lot of difference for just general surfing use (I'm not a game player so have no speed worries of that sort!)  Good luck with it all on Thurs - and don't forget it will take a few days to settle down and find its own happy level :)
Logged

jeffbb

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 2329
Re: ADSL Max query
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2009, 06:01:25 PM »

Hi
Synch speed is just one part of the service I am connecting at about 6000Kbps with a 5000Kbps profile but my downloads are rarely better than 1000Kbps between now and 11PM.(tiscali) you may be luckier . :)
regards Jeff
Logged
zen user

happy37

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 249
Re: ADSL Max query
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2009, 07:46:39 PM »

Those figures for line attenuation and SNR are very similar to mine.  I get max synch of about 4500kbps with it usually being rock solid at 3776kbps so I get a BT profile of 3Mb.  It may not be as fast as Billy Whizz (if you ever read the Beano!) but it is a much better service than I had on 1Mb fixed last a few years ago.

I had similar concerns to yours at that time about whether I would see a real benefit moving from a fixed line but I think it is well worth it.  Once you get up to 3Mb or so then marginal increases/decreases in speed don't seem to me to make a lot of difference for just general surfing use (I'm not a game player so have no speed worries of that sort!)  Good luck with it all on Thurs - and don't forget it will take a few days to settle down and find its own happy level :)

jazz

I like your way of saying about Billy Whizz!!! - are you stats still similar to mine now that you've upgraded to Max, or have you found that they are stable...i.e. the fluctuations in downstream noise margin and so on??? Have the stats settled or not?

Let me know - I think that can see and understand why I've got these concerns though. I think and hope that I will be fine as like you, I don't get time to play games online or offline for that matter!!!

but...

for general use, emails and downloads, it'll be fine.

On a last note, though, at the end of your post, you say that it will take a few days to settle down and find its own happy level :) :-

How did you manage to work through the 10 day period with regards to the line settling? I would like to know as to how you dealt with switching the router on and off (I've been advised to make new, frequent connections to the Net). Did you do this by just plugging the router on and off at the mains or via the router login pages?

Thanks for your help - if you have anything else to add, please feel free to do so.

Regards

happy37


 
Logged

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33881
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: ADSL Max query
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2009, 08:19:10 PM »

Quote
(I've been advised to make new, frequent connections to the Net).

I'm generally in the camp of 'leave it alone'  and it will find its own level... and wouldnt recommend doing so too often as this can have an adverse re-action and fool the DLM into thinking that its through instability/loss of sync if you do it too often.  Once a day is fine..  The DLM system in theory should be able cope with many more, but experience has shown that the DLM often has a mind of its own and doesnt necessarily follow the theory. :/

Because your SNRM fluctuates quite a lot, then its likely that a sync in the morning will give you higher speeds, but come evening when the SNRM drops, the line will drop and eventually the DLM will increase your target SNR to compensate.  If this starts happening then because of bRAS/IP profiles then youre unlikely to get the actual throughput speeds of the higher sync anyhow as it may take a few days to catch up.

Depending upon as and when your SNRM drops you may be better just letting the router resync at the lower level and leaving it be, unless its an unusually large drop in speed.

Going onto Maxdsl wont stop the SNR fluctuations, in fact your connection on max will be more affected than on a fixed speed product.

IMHO if you are feeling a bit geeky then you would be far better off grabbing a copy of the excellent routerstats and using it to monitor your SNR Margin.  You may even find a pattern of times is recorded as to when your SNRM starts to drop which in many instances has helped people track down where some sorts of interference is coming from which causes the SRNM to dip.

Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

happy37

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 249
Re: ADSL Max query
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2009, 08:08:22 AM »

Quote
(I've been advised to make new, frequent connections to the Net).

I'm generally in the camp of 'leave it alone'  and it will find its own level... and wouldnt recommend doing so too often as this can have an adverse re-action and fool the DLM into thinking that its through instability/loss of sync if you do it too often.  Once a day is fine..  The DLM system in theory should be able cope with many more, but experience has shown that the DLM often has a mind of its own and doesnt necessarily follow the theory. :/

Because your SNRM fluctuates quite a lot, then its likely that a sync in the morning will give you higher speeds, but come evening when the SNRM drops, the line will drop and eventually the DLM will increase your target SNR to compensate.  If this starts happening then because of bRAS/IP profiles then youre unlikely to get the actual throughput speeds of the higher sync anyhow as it may take a few days to catch up.

Depending upon as and when your SNRM drops you may be better just letting the router resync at the lower level and leaving it be, unless its an unusually large drop in speed.

Going onto Maxdsl wont stop the SNR fluctuations, in fact your connection on max will be more affected than on a fixed speed product.

IMHO if you are feeling a bit geeky then you would be far better off grabbing a copy of the excellent routerstats and using it to monitor your SNR Margin.  You may even find a pattern of times is recorded as to when your SNRM starts to drop which in many instances has helped people track down where some sorts of interference is coming from which causes the SRNM to dip.



kitz

Good morning - thanks for your really helpful reply - I think that I will leave the router alone for the first 10 days to do its own thing and only connect/disconnect via the router connect/disconnect options once a day, if that even (or do you advise just switching on and off from the mains instead?)

However, one of the most useful things is what you've mentioned at the end of your post regarding “routerstats” - I downloaded a copy of that as soon as I read your reply, and I will start to monitor my SNR Margin from Thursday when the new Max connection kicks in. The only query I have is whether I should run the program on its default settings, or do I have to configure it in some manner to use it with my Net connection?

Please advise - thanks again...

Regards

happy37
Logged

roseway

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 43472
  • Penguins CAN fly
    • DSLstats
Re: ADSL Max query
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2009, 10:07:17 AM »

Quote
The only query I have is whether I should run the program on its default settings, or do I have to configure it in some manner to use it with my Net connection?

You need to do a little configuration - at the very least you will have to enter your login details for the router. Routerstats comes with pretty comprehensive online help; just click the Help button when you run the program.
Logged
  Eric
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 14
 

anything