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Author Topic: Target SNR changed today.  (Read 10054 times)

roseway

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Re: Target SNR changed today.
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2008, 06:50:56 PM »

@MC

I'm not intending to get in an argument with you, and of course I don't dispute your observations. But the connection speed and noise margin are negotiated between your router and the DSLAM in the exchange, a process which does not involve your ISP in any way. The target noise margin is set by the DLM process, and this defines the noise margin at the time of making the connection. Thereafter the noise margin can change depending on line conditions and the level of interference. At no point in this process does your ISP have any control over the noise margin.

For a more detailed description of how this works please see this.
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  Eric

MollyCoddle

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Re: Target SNR changed today.
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2008, 07:00:56 PM »

@roseway,

Then its best if we don't comment on each others posts in the future unless we have a positive way forward for each others posts and not mere referals.
My intention is to learn enough about ADSL, to be helpful to others in the future. If you wish to get anything 'off your chest' PM me and we can clear the air without others having to read it, I do not want be expelled from this forum, neither do I expect my observations to be denied.

Molly Coddle
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 07:14:39 PM by MollyCoddle »
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roseway

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Re: Target SNR changed today.
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2008, 07:31:01 PM »

As I said, I don't dispute your observations, but I do advise you that your conclusions are wrong. You're not going to be expelled from this forum (we don't do that sort of thing) but if you reach a conclusion which I believe to be wrong, then I will say so, as I have.

However if you don't wish me to make any more attempts to help you, then that's fine.
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  Eric

MollyCoddle

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Re: Target SNR changed today.
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2008, 10:12:31 AM »

If anyone would like to venture an idea concerning changes in my SNR action, I would be happy to enter into a constructive and lateral discussion.

Likewise I hope to learn through constructive and lateral discussions, so that I may help others and not be dismissive of the facts.

The reading of the very helpful explanation manuals on this site do not explain the phenomena I have experienced.

Sincerely, MC

@roseway, if you give me permission under this thread, for me to briefly and constructively PM you, perhaps we can both benefit in the future.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 10:17:49 AM by MollyCoddle »
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roseway

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Re: Target SNR changed today.
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2008, 10:49:00 AM »

Yes, of course you can PM me.
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  Eric

MollyCoddle

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Re: Target SNR changed today.
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2008, 11:24:22 AM »

Sent, thank you, I will only PM you in the future if you ask within a discussion thread, or to respond to one of yours.

As I have never sent a PM before, it seemed awkward, please let me know if you did not receive it.

MC
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Ezzer

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Re: Target SNR changed today.
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2008, 01:34:07 PM »

Attenuation, snr, snrm, and errors are all physical measurements of the dsl signal between the mux (the kit which generates the dsl signal at the exchange) and the end users router/modem)

I like my analogies so here goes.

Attenuation is like talking to some one standing at the end of your road. the further away they are the fainter the conversation so you may have to talk more slowly to be understood. dsl works the same way.

SNR is the difference as a ratio in volume of the above conversation over say a nearby radio blurring out or someone mowing the lawn (and typicaly a combination of a lot of these)

SNRM is based on the above but the working of the numbers is more of a tolerance level around the typical snr. so with the above conversation your having you generaly have a typical level of backround noise for your local.

based on the above combinations the exchange equipment via an automated bit of kit works out what speed of conversation it can get away with, and typicaly cranks this figure back by half a meg. (maximum data rate-MDR and actual data rate- ADR) as a reliabilty safety margin.

If everything is hunky dory then things should stay stable. the odd extra bit of noise is neither here nor there unless this changes significantly over a moderate period of time or theres a repeated blast of noise then the dlm adjusts things to suit. no point in trying to hold things as they are because the conversation will become unintelligable or the contact is lost all together (and if things are bad enough this happens regardless of what the dlm tries)

It works the same the other way. If an annoying neighbour moves out along with their loud music you eventualy feel confident enough to speed the conversation up same with the dlm.

in rare occasions the dlm can be nudged manualy as long as there is a better snr compaired to the level the snrm has been set to. if there isn't this difference then tough because te system is coping to it's best ability with the conditions. there is nothing on the system to manualy nudge the snrm the other way. the whol system is geared to allow the fastest speeds that can be reliably maintained for the physical measurements of the signal. Typicaly a problem with sync speed isn't a failue of the DLM, its due to the physical state of the signal

If theres an snr issue around you then it's a case of either locating the source or retuning your set up so it's less sensitive to it.

Sorry that was a very long winded way of explaining what Roseway was saying  :)
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b4dger

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Re: Target SNR changed today.
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2008, 01:35:59 PM »

Me again  :)

Just to update: I've sync'd around 55xx since last Saturday after my Target SNR reduced automatically.
But my IP Profile has only just caught up!

I know small changes can take 'up to 5 days' but it's taken me 7.

Now only time will tell if my target stays at 6db or if my error count will cause problems.
As expected, I'm seeing many more errors running on a lower Target SNR.
My SNRM drops by about 3db in the evening - down to about 2.5/3db. It all seems to run fine but obviously doesn't leave me much margin if I should have a noisy session which I do see on my flaky line.
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roseway

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Re: Target SNR changed today.
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2008, 01:51:07 PM »

Yes, I had a small incident recently which caused my IP profile to drop by one notch, and mine took 7 days to recover afterwards too.
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  Eric

b4dger

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Re: Target SNR changed today.
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2008, 03:06:22 PM »

That's interesting - I'm glad it's not just me!

I still thought it was 75mins up to 5 days - looks like it might have changed then (for the worse).

The IP Profile system must be one of the unfairest things around. I'm sure the bod that came up with the idea must have been a keen snakes-and-ladders fan as a child! Just when you are near the top, one hiccup and you slide all the way down...
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jid

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Re: Target SNR changed today.
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2008, 03:12:23 PM »

The IP Profile system must be one of the unfairest things around. I'm sure the bod that came up with the idea must have been a keen snakes-and-ladders fan as a child! Just when you are near the top, one hiccup and you slide all the way down...

I suppose I have at least one advantage on LLU, no IP Profiles :D
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Kind Regards
Jamie

BT FTTP - 75meg | Sky Q |  Bridgend Weather

b4dger

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Re: Target SNR changed today.
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2008, 05:26:09 PM »

I suppose I have at least one advantage on LLU, no IP Profiles :D

Yep! You are very lucky :fingers:
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Weaver

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Re: Target SNR changed today.
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2009, 12:40:22 PM »

> But today I've found that my Target SNR seems to have been automatically reduced to the default 6db - increasing my sync to 5504  :)

 I am unbelievably jealous of your success in getting your target SNR margin lowered down to 6dB, and a sync rate of 5504 is forever a dream unfortunately.

I'd like to ask how long it took to get automatic target SNR reductions to happen from BT DLM? (Perhaps would be a good idea to put that topic, of DLM timing, onto a separate thread, as there are soo many rumours flying around about the exact algorithms and continuous connection time rules surrounding DLM adaptation that it would be good to ask lots of people who are BT Wholesale DLM users to chip in and contribute evidence from their experience.]

> Obviously I'll continue to bore you keep you all updated with the latest news  ::)

I hope you will keep the updates coming.

Could I ask what your other numbers are nowadays? Line attenuation?
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b4dger

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Re: Target SNR changed today.
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2009, 12:58:23 PM »

Hi Weaver - glad to hear you found my 'story' interesting :)

I've pasted my current stats below for you.

I keep this page up to date with any significant changes: www.hmmm.ip3.co.uk/adsl-snr
It's hard to say more on the timing of my last Target SNR change. After having my Target manually tweaked at the end of March nothing changed until 21st Dec. when the automatic reduction occurred.
But for the few weeks running up to that I did notice that the number of FEC/HEC/CRC errors recorded had improved - I didn't record those figures I'm afraid.


Link Information
Uptime: 0 days, 4:02:32
Modulation: G.992.1 annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 5,536
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 11.88 / 144.68
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 26.5 / 50.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 19.0 / 6.5
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / TSTC
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 60,987
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 37
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 31
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Weaver

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Re: Target SNR changed today.
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2009, 05:54:47 PM »

@MollyCoddle

Hi Mollycoddle,

I and I'm sure plenty of others would like to help as much as we can. :-)

I don't know you, you could be an expert or a novice, and so apologies in advice, because seeing as I don't know how much you already know about ADSL, if I/we end up telling you things that you already know perfectly well. :-)

Would you start a new thread so that we can help you get to the bottom of your issue? What do you think? Then this discussion isn't buried within this thread.

Start with one or two basics (which ISP, length of line, basic ADSL performance stats, model of ADSL router, router firmware version) and then I/we would like to ask a few more questions? Make sense?

Very best,
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