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Author Topic: 10 days is over - what now - should I leave well alone?  (Read 4605 times)

Coastline

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10 days is over - what now - should I leave well alone?
« on: November 20, 2008, 03:05:28 PM »

Ok - BT Max activated on the 10th!  Upgraded from 1mb classic.

Very happy with speed increase over my old connection but not sure if I should attempt to improve things!  There are obviously some issues as I think the error stats show, so some advice would be useful regarding the following:

1. Should I check to see if Bell Wire etc are connected from the junction box (see below) to the master socket and if so cut them?
2. I have not manually re-sync'd at all during the 10 day period although I have a number of LOS's (not sure if they cause a resync) - If I disconnect router to check Bell Wire or just do a resync am I likely to lose speed/profile?  Would it be best to do this in the morning when my SNR margin is at it's highest?
3. Interleave - Should I ask to have this switched off?  Will it really improve my latency by 20ms or more? Potentially how much speed could I lose?

After reading a lot of horror stories regarding BT profiles and considering I'm happy with what I have I am just worried what will happen if I re-sync for whatever reason.  How worried should I be about a re-sync and should I attempt to improve my error stats or just leave well alone?

Thanks for your comments.

Tony


**** Stats and other info *****

Router (Belkin F5D8630) uptime for stats below is from sometime on the afternoon of the 10th!  I have not manually re-synced at all during that time - not sure if I should have.

My ADSL line is a completely separate line to the house phone with no extensions or phones attached it.  Both lines come into the house to a small junction box then my ADSL line comes from the junction box about 20ft (bt installed cable) to the master socket.  Master Socket is the old style (ie not openreach).  Router plugged into a filter (but no phone attached), filter into front socket of master socket. 

BT test tells me my profile is 7000.  I get good throughput during the day my best speed test (speedtest.net) 6867kbps.  However noise margin drops significantly in the evening down to the 7-8 range which has an effect on throughput.

adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime  Channel: INTR, Upstream rate = 448 Kbps, Downstream rate = 8096 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode:                   G.DMT
Channel:                Interleave
Trellis:                ON
Line Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):       10.3            23.0
Attn(dB):       33.0            18.0
Pwr(dBm):       19.8            12.3
Max(Kbps):      9472            1176
Rate (Kbps):    8096            448
                        G.dmt framing
K:              254(0)          15
R:              20              16
S:              1               8
D:              64              4
                        ADSL2 framing
MSGc:           1               1
B:              37              10
M:              1               1
T:              1               1
R:              0               0
S:              1.0000          1.0000
L:              304             88
D:              1               1
                        Counters
SF:             50550858                50550856
SFErr:          1074            10
RS:             2579949446              429682276
RSCorr:         27623766                138
RSUnCorr:       17883           0

HEC:            868             6
OCD:            6               0
LCD:            0               0
Total Cells:    3524097585              0
Data Cells:     79947346                0
Drop Cells:     3177
Bit Errors:     0               0

ES:             771             0
SES:            93              0
UAS:            616             0
Total time = 1 days 22 hours 42 min 3 sec
SF  = 53234901
CRC = 1286
LOS = 95
LOF = 0
ES  = 771
Latest 1 day time = 22 hours 42 min 3 sec
SF  = 4807260
CRC = 109
LOS = 16
LOF = 0
ES  = 73
Latest 15 minutes time = 12 min 3 sec
SF  = 42521
CRC = 0
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES  = 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
SF  = 52930
CRC = 0
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES  = 0
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
SF  = 5082380
CRC = 66
LOS = 8
LOF = 0
ES  = 47
15 minutes interval [-30 min to -15 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF  = 52990
CRC = 2
LOS = 1
LOF = 0
ES  = 2
15 minutes interval [-45 min to -30 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF  = 52930
CRC = 0
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES  = 0
15 minutes interval [-60 min to -45 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF  = 52930
CRC = 1
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES  = 1
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HPsauce

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Re: 10 days is over - what now - should I leave well alone?
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2008, 04:04:35 PM »

1. Should I check to see if Bell Wire etc are connected from the junction box (see below) to the master socket and if so cut them?
You could, but as you're almost at the maximum speed I'd just leave well alone.  8)
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kitz

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Re: 10 days is over - what now - should I leave well alone?
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2008, 04:04:59 PM »

Quote
Should I check to see if Bell Wire etc are connected from the junction box (see below) to the master socket and if so cut them?

Wont harm - it looks like there may be some room for improvement and its much cheaper than an i-plate.

Quote
I have not manually re-sync'd at all during the 10 day period although I have a number of LOS's (not sure if they cause a resync) -


LoS means loss of signal - its actually an alarm state which doesnt necessarily mean a loss of sync with the exchange - it depends how long the LoS was for..  but it is one of the most serious alarm states and indicates some sort of noise burst.

Checking your internal wiring would be a good move.
I notice your router seems to indicate uptime of 1 day 22 hours so it perhaps did an auto resync..  but Im not sure since your sync speed is around the max for an interleaved line.

Quote
If I disconnect router to check Bell Wire or just do a resync am I likely to lose speed/profile?  Would it be best to do this in the morning when my SNR margin is at it's highest?

As long as you dont mess too much and keep rebooting the router it should be fine.
Morning is best to give you the most speed, but doing so can sometimes cause the SNRM to get too low in the evenings, which may cause an auto-resync in the evenings. Evenings is the worst time if youre looking for speed, but best for stability.  Its hard to say without 'knowing' how your line performs and how much the SNRM dips.

Quote
. Interleave - Should I ask to have this switched off?  Will it really improve my latency by 20ms or more? Potentially how much speed could I lose?

Yes it will..  You wont loose speed as such from your current profile.  You will hopefully sync at the full 8128 which should increase your ip profile to 7150.
What effect it will have on your stability and error rate though is hard to say - check your wiring first.
Based on your attenuation only you should be fine.


Quote
However noise margin drops significantly in the evening down to the 7-8 range which has an effect on throughput.

That I am concerned about - a line of your length should be able to perform quite well at 8Mb and be able to cope with a 6dB SNRM without any problems.

From what youve said about your socket it sounds like you have an LJU2 which dont have the test socket. :(
hmmm  6dB... are you using one of the older Home hubs by any chance?
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kitz

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Re: 10 days is over - what now - should I leave well alone?
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2008, 04:06:36 PM »

1. Should I check to see if Bell Wire etc are connected from the junction box (see below) to the master socket and if so cut them?
You could, but as you're almost at the maximum speed I'd just leave well alone.  8)

Your reply wasnt there when I started mine HP - I fully understand where youre coming from..  but I was looking at it from the perspective of getting interleaved removed from the line and what effect it would have on the error rate... and if that could just tip the balance a bit... particularly if he mentions seeing an impact on throughput atm.

Just thought.....


...........  unless the lack of throughput is ellacoya based rather than error rate!
« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 04:08:43 PM by kitz »
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HPsauce

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Re: 10 days is over - what now - should I leave well alone?
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2008, 04:21:35 PM »

Oh, I was just giving a quick reply.  ;D
(Didn't have time for your detailed response)  ;)
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Ezzer

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Re: 10 days is over - what now - should I leave well alone?
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2008, 05:26:47 PM »

from what you describe you have the "lead-in" (the bt cable feeding your master socket as attached to the property) going via a block terminal (the connection box) then into your master

So you should have only the 2 wires feeding the socket, if there's no other wiring on the back of the face plate then your ok. the only way I would see your having a bell wire connected is if there's or was an external bell which may have been fed back on spare wires within the lead-in, in which case you'll see a pair of wires on the face plate terminated on 3 and 5. The other clue to the possibility to an external bell (although not always fitted) is a small back box with a silver front and a sliding switch which reveals either a red or green dot depending which way it's switched at the time.

The only other thing wich may be on in addition is if there's an alarm system such as redcare connected to the screw terminals at the back of the nte, if so this would go to a small block terminal with redcare marked on it. this bit you don't touch (or if you do, put the kettle on for the chaps in blue, should have boiled by the time they knock on the door  :police: :police:)

If any one has problems with broadband and they have an alarm system connected to the telephony then it may be worth contacting the alarm company to check if the alarm unit has been filtered as this is an easy one to miss
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Coastline

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Re: 10 days is over - what now - should I leave well alone?
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2008, 06:53:28 PM »

Thanks for the replies everyone - a bit of additional info - not sure if it affects anything:

1.  Router up time - The 1 day 22 hours issue, I believe is a bug common to several routers of this kind (Belkin Pre-n F5D8630) and not due to a re-sync.
2.  Router is Belkin Pre-n F5D8630 - did not like the look of the Home Hub or the likelyhood that BT could fiddle with it automatically without me knowing!!
3.  After checking the cabling a bit more thoroughly I believe the Master socket for my ADSL only has 2 wires going to it so I assume it should be ok.  See notes below and attached pics.  Is there anything I need to check in the junction box for the two wires that go to the ADSL Master socket?

Notes about ADSL line installation:

When I had my ADSL installed originally they brought new cables from the pole to the house.  Originally I had 2 lines into my office 1 for the ADSL and 1 for a fax line.  As you can see from the picture Junction Box - the lines come into the house and split into two the one exiting at the bottom is the house phone the ones exiting the top go to my office (I said that cable was 20ft but it actually goes through a wall so is less than 5ft) to the boxes in the office see picture Master_add_line.  It looks like the engineer took the cables into the LUJ4 socket for the additional line but the ADSL two wires continue directly into the Master socket.  The additional Line has since been cancelled so the LUJ4 socket is to all intents and purposes dead!

[attachment deleted by admin]
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jid

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Re: 10 days is over - what now - should I leave well alone?
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2008, 08:51:50 PM »

Looking at the third pic there, I can see that the ring wires are connected (the orange ones).

Could Kitz, Ezzer or HP confirm whether they can be removed  :-\ :)

Ezzer has given a great explanation there and I am sure he will be around soon to have a look at your snaps  :)
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Jamie

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roseway

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Re: 10 days is over - what now - should I leave well alone?
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2008, 09:32:59 PM »

If you're going to disconnect the ring wire you have to do it at the master socket. Disconnecting it at the extension end only achieves nothing.
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  Eric

Coastline

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Re: 10 days is over - what now - should I leave well alone?
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2008, 10:11:21 PM »

My view of the cabling is as follows:

Pic 1.  Lines come into the house and into the junction box.  They are then split house phone - down.  ADSL and additional line exit Up (Additional line is now disconnected) and go through a wall to the sockets in the Office.
Pic 2.  Office Sockets.  Cable from Junction Box Up enters from the right of the picture into the LUJ4 socket (LUJ4 Socket on the right, ADSL Master Socket on the left)
Pic 3.  LUJ4 socket with faceplate removed. You can see additional line is connected to that socket.  The ADSL line however continues unhindered to the Master Socket to the Left of the LUJ4.
pic 4.  You can see the two wires going straight through the LUJ4 and on to the Master Socket.

So my assumption is that as long as nothing is causing problems in the Junction box (Bit tangled and messy to figure it out in the dark) then there are only two wires into the Master socket and hence there should be no cable issues.

Does that make sense?
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roseway

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Re: 10 days is over - what now - should I leave well alone?
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2008, 10:50:29 PM »

I'm afraid I'm having some difficulty making sense of that. There appear to be three pairs entering the LUJ4; the blue pair continues through to the master socket, and the orange and green pairs go elsewhere. There don't seem to be any extensions wired from the master socket which you use for ADSL; if that's the case then there's nothing more to be done - no ring wires to be cut or anything else. But if there is an extension wired into the master socket which we can't see in the pictures, then it would be worth disconnecting the ring wire from the master socket end of that connection (if the ring wire is in fact connected).
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  Eric

Coastline

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Re: 10 days is over - what now - should I leave well alone?
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2008, 06:58:05 PM »

Hi Roseway,

There are no extensions from the ADSL master socket so theoretically nothing to be done.

However checking the House line there was a bt of a dogs breakfast where the engineer had obviously connected the new cabling into the house to some existing cabling to avoid drilling holes lifting carpet floorboards etc.

Now the question I have is can other wiring which is separated at the junction box Pic 1.  affect noise/errors on my ADSL connection?  I would seem to think yes as my error stats went haywire whilst I was opening the other boxes.  I found a bellwire connected to an old disconnected alarm system (that's gone).  And some on a couple of extensions (also gone).  I would have thought that as these are a completely separate line that they wouldn't affect the ADSL line!

REIN - After rewiring the house and eventually getting the house phone working again :) I decided to give the AM radio thing a try.  It would seem almost every bit of kit I have plugged in in my office is giving off interference.  Particularly a power supply for my Speakers and one for a HP Printer.  How likely is it that these are causing me grief - surely I don't need to turn everything off!

Starting to get a headache!!! ;D
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Ezzer

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Re: 10 days is over - what now - should I leave well alone?
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2008, 10:05:07 AM »

Looking at the block terminal (the junction box) the lead-in is drop wire 14 not the typical d/w10, difference being it has 4 pairs instead of 2. Orange/white =pair1, red/slate =pair2, blue/brown =pair3, green/black=pair4

The internal wiring up to the nte's are based on the newer colour coding, blue=pr1, orange=pr2, green=pr3, brown=pr4

It's after the nte that internal wiring (if you have any)takes the convention of the blues being the voice pair and orange/white the bell wire for the 1st line

Looking at your set up you have the capacity for 3 lines with nte's as everything stands at the moment, and with no extention wiring there's nothing to disconnect to potentialy improve things (just because intenral extention wiring exists dosn't autamaticaly mean there's a drop in performance, reading through so many strings on theis site may give the opposite impression)

I would say you set up is absolutely fine with no need to tweek anything  ;D



REIN - After rewiring the house and eventually getting the house phone working again :) I decided to give the AM radio thing a try.  It would seem almost every bit of kit I have plugged in in my office is giving off interference.  Particularly a power supply for my Speakers and one for a HP Printer.  How likely is it that these are causing me grief - surely I don't need to turn everything off!

Starting to get a headache!!! ;D

With an am radio you would normaly find anything electrical gives out some noise, typicaly this should fade as the radio is moved about half a meter away from the source. Its a sign of modern times that we're bathed in emf. usualy this has little or no effect on broadband. although the way broadband works and the degree it pushes performance to the limits it's amazing how it works as well as it does. Picking up noise on a radio isn't a sure sign of a problem which is in part what makes REIN so difficult to prove and isolate
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Coastline

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Re: 10 days is over - what now - should I leave well alone?
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2008, 11:31:01 AM »

Ezzer,

Thanks for that, I feel I understand my wiring a bit now!

You are right about the Lead-in (I assume that's the wire coming into the house).  I remember when the engineer fitted it he said he had put a four line (pair) cable.  I assume he connected the fourth pair to an extra socket in my office even though only three of the four were live at the time 2 in the office and the house phone down stairs.

So are you saying that it doesn't matter what kind of a mess (extension wise) is connected to the house phone line (this is the one exiting vertically from the block terminal) it won't affect the ADSL line?  To give you an idea the house line runs from the block terminal on nice new cable to an old style brown screw block terminal with "GPO" on the outside (might be worth a few quid at the antiques roadshow) it then splits into two spurs one goes back upstairs to the main bedroom and the other goes via old cable (this went behind some panelling which I think was the original reason that he didn't put in new cable ) to a master socket with a further extension from that into the lounge.  "Pauses to take a breath"!  Am I right in thinking that I cannot replace the cable between the block terminal and the house master socket as that is classed as BT property?  If so how can I get them to do it?

Regarding the REIN stuff - You are spot in with the distance issue it was only close up that I was getting feedback.  Is moving the noisier power supplies further away a good idea and if so away from what - the router, or the ADSL socket.

One final question.  I am currently connected to the socket using the Router cable that came in the box connected to a filter.  The filter is not because I have a phone connected but just for the RJ11 to phone jack converter.  Would it be worth getting one of the ADSL nation XTE 2005 faceplates and also one of their cables?

In the end what should I really be attempting to achieve?  What is an acceptable level of LOS, ES, and CRC errors?  To be honest I wouldn't know from normal usage that I was even getting them.  Yes I get a big difference in noise margin as the day progresses which does seem to go hand in hand with a significant drop in speed.  But I am still getting much better than I had and my worst speeds seem to be way ahead of a lot of people with problems on the forum.  Ultimately I would like to get Interleave switched off as latency is important to me but I am not sure how much I can do to improve my error rate before I do that or even if I need to.

Verbal diarrhoea now ends!!

Thanks for everyone's input on this you've all been a great help.
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