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Author Topic: AOL laggy online gaming  (Read 7045 times)

JohnR

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AOL laggy online gaming
« on: October 10, 2008, 10:31:25 PM »

Hi Kitz forums,

I'm on AOL and I'm getting really bad packet loss whilst online gaming.

I was on AOL silver @ 2mb with a voyager 105 modem, then I got a free upgrade to 8mb with a speedtouch st585, I got the router, but the speed never increased above 2mb.

I am using windows xp with kaspersky, I get the packet loss with or without kaspersky running.

I am playing on servers where I have good ping, but this makes no difference to my packet loss, I'm always losing packets. I have tried my modem and  my router many times, always the same packet loss.

I heard on some forums that AOL UK has been bought out by carphone warehouse, it was the first I'd heard of it, I read that some AOL customers would now be on a different server and would have different RWINN and MTU values? How can I find out what server I'm on and what settings I need to use.

What are the best steps for me to take to stabilise my connection so that I can play online games without constant packet loss?

I rang the technical support, and told the guy I was getting some serious packet loss whilst online gaming and asked whether he could check my connection, he just said that they cant sort technical problems out from the callcentre, should I just leave AOL or is there something I can do?

John
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jid

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Re: AOL laggy online gaming
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2008, 09:46:34 AM »

I rang the technical support, and told the guy I was getting some serious packet loss whilst online gaming and asked whether he could check my connection, he just said that they cant sort technical problems out from the callcentre, should I just leave AOL or is there something I can do?

So their Technical Support call centre couldn't help with a Technical issue! Thats a good start !!

Well, have your checked this:-
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/tweak2.htm

Use the calculator to work out your RWIN, as you are with AOL, make sure you have your MTU at 1400 :)

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kitz

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Re: AOL laggy online gaming
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2008, 11:51:23 AM »

>> I got a free upgrade to 8mb with a speedtouch st585, I got the router, but the speed never increased above 2mb.

I seen and heard of this several times where people have been promised the increased speeds, but they didnt accually occur..  out of curiosity could you post your linestats please.

>> I am playing on servers where I have good ping, but this makes no difference to my packet loss,

What are you using to check your latency WinMTR is a handy tool.

>> make sure you have your MTU at 1400

As stated by jid, this may help..  Ive seen a few reports over the past week, where it looks like AOL have been doing a bit of "tweaking" some where and there seems to have been a few users having to tweak their MTU for the first time to get things to work properly again.

>> I heard on some forums that AOL UK has been bought out by carphone warehouse, it was the first I'd heard of it, I read that some AOL customers would now be on a different server

yes, iirc it was about 2 years ago.. but it took a wee while before they integrated the networks.  The amount of integration would appear to depend on your location.  From what I can gather TT took over AOLs IPStream Central Pipes and started applying traffic management.  On some LLU exchanges, AOL & TT share the same MSANs.  In others  AOL have their own dslam and they may have a different backhaul.. or there may be some (like my own) where although theres a specific AOL MSAN and another for TalkTalk MSAN.. they both actually go through the same backhaul.
So no hard and fast rules Im afraid.
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JohnR

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Re: AOL laggy online gaming
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2008, 02:06:52 PM »

Hi,

thanks for the replies!

Yes jid, I'd already seen that and used it to get my current DrTCP config., thanks. Was wondering about that, AOLs MTU has to always be at 1400, so what settings are there left for me to tweak apart from TCP receive window/RWINN. What do I change this to, to decrease packet loss when online gaming. I play first person shooters, so I really want my packets to be getting to and from the server with no errors. My connection seems to be really stable apart from online gaming, connects straight away and downloads all files at 2mb which for me is full speed, b/c I have lost any hope of getting 7mb out of the advertised 8mb like they said my upgrade would give me.

AOL sent me a speedtouch 585, and said I would now get a maximum of 7mb out of the 8mb line (b/c of living in a village) after being upgraded to from 2mb. This is a deal I worked out with AOL when I wanted to leave, they gave me this supposed speed increase and a router for 2 quid less than my previous 2mb connection, but now I've still got 3/4 of a year left on an 18 month contract and my connection is soo bad when online gaming. I went back to my old voyager 105 modem after using the speedtouch 585 for 2 months with extreme packet loss, since going back to the voyager, the packet loss seems to be identical to the speedtouch's (alot).

I just rang AOL and asked them to check my connection, they said it all looks good on their end. I was telling them that I have no problems connecting to the internet and no problems uploading and downloading files, and that my only problem was losing packets between online gaming servers and my PC, they said to me that all AOL servers are under maintenence and will be fully functional again in 4 hours to a days time, I thought this was hilarious seeing as I have been having this packet loss for getting on a year now. They said all AOL is now carphone warehouse now btw (AOL UK i presume). The AOL customer service (technical support dept.) didnt have a clue what to say when I told her I was getting packet loss, she didnt have a clue about RWINN or MTU. After getting so bored of speaking to someone who knew less than my nooby self about the situation, I asked to speak to normal customer support (not tech. support) to dicuss my contract. They said I will have to continue paying every month until June 09, I said that I thought I could terminate a contract if the service was really bad, and for what I use it for, it is really bad, they said no. What can I do?

My stats are attached kitz, I'm a big noob with all connection related stuff, so if I'v left anything in that text doc that I shouldn't have (like stuff that will help hackers), plz remove the file for me!

Thanks,

John

[attachment deleted by admin]
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roseway

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Re: AOL laggy online gaming
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2008, 03:16:31 PM »

Good heavens! Do you live in the exchange? :)

That's a very low attenuation, and your connection speed is what is supposed to be the highest value available on an interleaved connection. So you should be able to get download speeds of 6 Mbps or more in good conditions. And there's nothing I can see there which would cause high packet loss.

So it looks as though the problem is caused by AOL, not your physical internet connection.
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jid

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Re: AOL laggy online gaming
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2008, 03:43:28 PM »

Looks like they promised an upgrade to 8meg broadband, applied it to your line, then capped your throughput speeds to 2meg :(

Give them a ring and tell them you sync at the full 8meg and are only getting 2meg. Also mention the attenuation if you want, as Roseway said, do you live in the exchange!

We all want stats as good as those! :)
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JohnR

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Re: AOL laggy online gaming
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2008, 05:08:47 PM »

I live near an exchange but I live in a village, I dont know whether living near this exchange would be as beneficial as living near an exchange in a city or town.

I rang the AOL tech support, and mentioned my line syncing at the full 8mb and only getting 2mb, the tech. support said "we are having server problems and that it will all be fixed in 6 hours", I said "but I'v only been getting just 2mb almost 9 months already", there was a pause... followed by the tech. support guy hanging up without saying anything in reply to my question.

I couldnt mention attention to him b/c I dont know what it is.

My stats may be be good, but they are useless to me if I get packet loss when playing online games!

Is this true what AOL said to me about not being able to terminate a contract 8 - 9 months premature, even though I can't use the connection properly for what I want?

Could it be kaspersky causing me to lose packets? What alternative security programs are best for maintaining a stable connection to gaming servers?

I have the netstats up when I'm playing online and I get barely any "lost" but my "ulost" is always where I have the problem. Is ulost problem sending or receiving?

I've attached a jpeg of a ping plotter test, hope this helps find the problem

Thanks,

John

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jid

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Re: AOL laggy online gaming
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2008, 05:19:39 PM »

You need to check the RWIN settings as that could be incorrect causing the packet loss, put the MTU of 1400 into the tool on the below page and it will output the RWIN for you to use.
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/tweak2.htm

As for AOL hanging up, I don't if I am right regarding this, but AOL are providing you with an 8meg service but are just capping you, therefore (not sure on this) breaching the contract they have with you?

Attenuation:-
Quote
Attenuation is the degradation of signal over distance and an indication of the length of your line.
The lower this figure the better. Generally speaking there isn't much you can do about attenuation, because of its direct correlation to your distance from the exchange. Because attenuation is an important aspect of your line and the part it plays in adsl there is a more in depth explanation on the interpreting your line stats page.

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats_explanation.htm

You are obviously connected to the exchange near to your village and this should have no effects as to what speeds you should get, it is all about the distance from your exchange not the exchange itself when it comes to Max DSL.

Kaspersky is unlikely to be causing you any issues, although you could try making sure your firewall allows ports and access used by games you are playing?

One thing I notice in your stats that you posted is that your line is interleaved, this increases latency quite a bit. As you line is stable, ring AOL to see if they can request for it to be switched off.
Info on Interleave: http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/interleaving.htm

Regards

Jamie
« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 05:21:46 PM by jid »
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kitz

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Re: AOL laggy online gaming
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2008, 06:33:56 PM »

Hi John - Thanks for those stats.

As the other have said - your actual line is good  - very good.
The reason I asked to see your line stats is that Ive seen AOL (and TT) do the same thing with others.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Ive seen live chat help CS tell blatant porkies about things and why the line wasn't getting full speed.

>> Interleaving and Latency

Something else to point out is that your line is on Interleaved - there's no reason why it should be under "normal" circumstances.  Have a read of Interleaving which explains the theory.  I'm now going to pre-empt AOLs reply "You need interleaving to help with the packet loss".  In your circumstances this isn't true, yes interleaving helps noisy and long lines - but it helps with packet loss that occurs between the home and the exchange due noise.  It doesn't help one iota if packet loss is occurring due to congestion or problems with the ISP network.

If you can get AOL to switch off interleaving then it may reduce your latency by about 20ms.

>> Your exchange.

It doesn't matter where in the UK you are - speed for adsl1 depends on the length of your line (and how much the ISP throttles it back).  Your line would perform very happily at the full 8Mb without interleaving.
Only some exchanges have adsl2+ ISPs with their own kit in.. but if it did - your line should happily perform at the full 24Mb - My own adsl1 linestats are very similar to yours, and it performs at the full 24Mb quite happily on adsl2+ without interleaving.

Looking up the IPs in your trace, it shows as being registered to CPW's network rather than AOL. I dont know if they're using LLU at your exchange - you could try looking it up on the exchange checker.

I suspect that if TalkTalk isnt at your exchange then you are on something called IPStream and their centrals are heavily congested.
This would also fit in with not getting the full 8Mb excuse that is very common with TT. In that they put their users on Max, but throttle it back on their side.

>> Could it be kaspersky causing me to lose packets?

It shouldn't be.. but Why don't you see - put the ST585 back on and completely uninstall kapersky. 
The ST585 has a hardware firewall and also the the added protection of NAT, you'd be quite safe to uninstall kapersky for testing.

>> MTU

If you're already at 1400 then thats fine - yes you could tweak the RWIN, but thats about tweaking for speed.  Its when MTU is too high that packet loss and black-holing occurs. I don't think RWIN tweaking is going to help in your situation.

>> not being able to terminate a contract 8 - 9 months premature

Its possible.  I personally helped a friend get out of a TT contract 10 months early. He went from a stable BT connection that would support 8Mb, to an appalling TT connection that was rubbish.  He was also one of those falsely not given the true speeds and hes now happy with another ISP getting the full 8Mb.  Everyone I know locally (aside from 1 neighbour who doesn't care that their connection is bad as they only use it for surfing) has moved away from them. I also know someone who got out of AOL due to not getting full speeds and being sick of their constant porkies
Have a search around theres lots of reports of users getting out if they press hard enough on the grounds that its unfit for the purpose.

How easy it will be to move to another ISP depends on whether you've been LLU'd or not - so check the exchange checker first.
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JohnR

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Re: AOL laggy online gaming
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2008, 12:25:45 AM »

Hi all @ kitz forums,

First off I'd like to say a big thank you to all the people who have helped me with this problem.

I havnt replied for a few days now, I have been adjusting variables to no avail. I have come to the conclusion that it is AOL.

When I negotiated a deal with AOL 9 months ago, we agreed that I wouldn't leave AOL on the terms that I got an increase from 2mb to 8mb and that I got a new router. For the last 9 months I have been thinking that I should be getting 8mb, when the max. download speed I have seen is almost exactly 2mb. I thought this was b/c my line (in a rural area, but still a big village) wasnt capable of handling 8mb. I rang BT this weekend to enquire about my lines capabilities, they informed me that my line could handle a max of 8mb, and that dslmax is supported at my location.

I rang AOL many times over the weekend, one of the calls I asked to check my contract details, they told me I had 9 months left, and that my contract speed was 2mb, I couldnt believe this, I tried explaining to them that I had agreed with a CSR that I wouldnt leave AOL if they gave me what I wanted (speed increase to 8mb with a router), to which they agreed. Now when I metion this they just deny all knowledge, and b/c we sorted this new contract out over the phone, i dont have the new contract on paper.

Another one of my phone calls to AOL revealed that I should have been connecting to AOL via a different username in order to connect to new AOL servers (CPW). AOL had never sent me any email or post about this, thanks! Now when I sign on to AOL I am meant to use the login: LandLineNumber@dialbb.com, obv. with my home phone number. When the CSR told me this, I got excited and thought that this would be why I wasn't getting my full 8mb and that this would have been the cause of my packet loss. After the call ended I tried a speedtest which for the first time of testing showed that I had about 4.5mb down, so I thought that my problem was gone, but I continued to speedtest my line, after the first test I've never seen speeds like that again. Now when I speedtest my results vary from speeds similar to dial up to about 1mbp/s 75% of the time, then the other 25% I get the full 2mb for which my contract says I should be getting. After this phone call where I found out the way to connect to the new AOL servers, I also tried to play online games (my main problem, I don't particualalry care about the 6mb - 7mb speed which I'm not getting), and still the problem persists, the same as it was with my old connection method.

Over the weekend, I uninstalled my Bt voyager 105 and reconnected my speedtouch 585, hoping for a decrease in packet loss, this didnt help. After reconnecting my speedtouch 585, I tried both PPPoE and PPPoA, both with the same results, are there any settings for my router which will help compatibility with the AOL/CPW servers?

Here are the DSL settings for the speedtouch 585


My local exchange


Here's a screenshot of one of my favourite games, which shows an example of the problem I have. This screenshot shows the netstats of the current map on the server. The lost and ulost I have been told, refer to packet loss. Lost being TCP/IP packets and Ulost being UDP Packets. As you can see in the image I receive no lost packets, but I get 14 thousand ulost. I am sick of this, and I really want to be able to play without this constant bad service.


I read that you helped a friend get off AOL mid-contract kitz. I have been thinking about this alot over the weekend. In one of my many calls to those script monkeys, I mentioned wanting to terminate a contract halfway thru, they went on to say that if I do leave them before the contract is over they will continue to charge me for every remaining month (8 or 9). I didnt like this, and I went on to say that my service isn't good enough for what I want it for (Online gaming), they said tough poo. So after this call, I started to think about the best way to aquire my MAC code, after I get that everything will be straight forward, block AOL on my credit card, so they cant charge me the remaining months, is this the way its done? If AOL say "oh u cant do that, thats illegal", I can then show proof that I wasnt getting what  I pay for and that at certain times of day my line is the same speed as dial up, (well less than 100 kbps, a twentieth of what they say I am paying for, in reality its an eightieth)

Here's a little proof, shame I missed the results for the sub 100kbps one, where my up speed was over 3x that of my down.


So basically I would like to know whther there are any router settings which could make my AOL connection usable for the reamining 9 months of contract?

How I can leave AOL mid contract with a MAC code, without having to pay another penny (legal or otherwise)?

What other ISPs are available to me (see my local exchange jepg)?

Thanks,

JohnR

« Last Edit: October 17, 2008, 12:37:31 AM by JohnR »
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kitz

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Re: AOL laggy online gaming
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2008, 02:41:36 AM »

Your linestats are good..  However, as an aside, there is a few too many FEC errors for what I'd expect on such a short line so check your internal wiring and filters

>> I thought this was b/c my line (in a rural area, but still a big village) wasnt capable of handling 8mb.

As you can see your exchange was 8Mb enabled on 31-03-2006, BTw estmimations are ok and therefore the delay in upgrading was in the hands of your ISP. 
As I said earlier - your adsl1 line stats are similar to my own, and like you my exchange was upgraded on 31-03-06 if iirc I was 8Mb enabled some time in Apr 06 by my ISP certainly without any fee or penalty nor having to start a new contract period.

Any delay in upgrading you to 8Mb speeds is in the hands of AOL, not your location.. nor will it have cost them any more for your line to be upgraded to max - if anything its now actually cheaper for the ISP.

>> they told me I had 9 months left, and that my contract speed was 2mb,

Not the first time Ive heard that excuse either.. but they still tie you into another 18 month contract!
The problem you may have here is the router.

>> I tried both PPPoE and PPPoA, both with the same results, are there any settings for my router which will help compatibility with the AOL/CPW servers?

Youre on IPStream which uses the BTw backhaul, but which is the service that would appear to be suffering most from congestion/throttling on the AOL (now TT) centrals.

>> they went on to say that if I do leave them before the contract is over they will continue to charge me for every remaining month (8 or 9).

Obviously they will try adhere you to the contract if they can, but you will need to stand firm.  I had several calls to the help desk, at first they tried fobbing me off, but when they realised that I knew what I was talking about, they would then offer to transfer me elsewhere.. at which point the phone on several occasions went brrrrrrrrrrrr. :mad:  Eventually we managed to say that the service what not providing what their side of the contract promised and they agreed to issue a MAC without penalty.

The rules re MAC keys have changed since then, and now an ISP must provide you with a MAC key without any charge or fee.  However, the ISP can chase you for any outstanding contract fees and this is the line you need make sure that you have right and you get confirmation before you actually use the MAC key that the service is not fit for your use (gaming) they are not providing you with the service that they promised (8Mb speeds).  Therefore you feel that they have not kept to their side of the contract.. and if they like they can even have the router back if they send you a pre-paid envelope to return it.

Keep a record of your speeds, compile a report of whats gone on and when.  It may also be worthwhile trying to contact OFCOM to explain your side of things and how unhappy you are at their non-performance.
With my friend, I didnt actually take it as far as OFCOM, although I did actually say to them that I would since I feel we he had been mislead and certainly wasnt receiving a the advertised performance on a line that should have been fully able to.  My friend eventually managed to bypass their foreign support and spoke to someone in the UK who agreed to let him go without having to stick out the remaining 10 months.

Their message boards appear to show users suffering the same problems as you... as do  other forums where someone has sent in a complaint to ISPA.

If you stand firm and hopefully get through to their UK support, then you may have some joy.

>> What other ISPs are available to me

Many - about the only ones who arent would be Be* since they only provide by LLU.
Most others will use IPStream in some form or other which will be available to you via BTw backhaul.
An example of such ISPs would be in no particular order..  Zen, plusnet, Enta, Idnet, newnet, etc.
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