Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Gully.Moy]

I'm no networking expert but surely any packet loss at 192.168.1.1, ie the router gateway address, is a big problem as there should be none. I think I'd be looking at trying a different router to definitely rule that out as being the issue.

I guess the whole argument about it being outside the house is that packet loss at intermediate hops can be false positives, so it could be lost along the way...

But, I am now thinking that you're right, because I have since unplugged the router from the internet and all other network, taken it to a different part of the house and pinged it directly (192.168.1.1), with two different Ethernet cables and via Wifi and I am still getting the same packet loss with one hop and no other networks involved!

But, I've already replaced the router and reset it multiple times. They actually didn't replace the power supply, could it be that? I don't have any equivalent power supplies to test it with. But why would the VPN not drop packets in that case?

Could it be bad vodafone firmware - I'm on the latest but 

It's looking like change ISP and see if their router fixes it.

[kitz]

Please note I attempted this post a few days ago, but a flare has meant Ive struggled to type properly for the past few days and this was sat in notepad.   I may as well post what I started.  Apols if things have moved on, but what I said in the first paragraph was a huge red flag for me.

-----------------------------------

I would have thought such high loss at first hop yet zero at last hop would confirm that the router is priortising traffic type.

@ the op
Ping and tracert use ICMP to check that remote network routers are reachable.
Simple non tech description, there are big chunks of info missing at some points, the subject is really worthy of a full page answer, but these days my typing is painfully slow so Im actually trying to keep this post as brief as possible.

When you perform a tracert data packets are sent to the end point destination.
As the data packet moves along the pathway A <--> B,  at each hop a request is made to send a reply back to you informing you its IP address and that it is alive. The hop time is calculated as when you get back notification of the "is alive" message.

However some routers can (and do) get very busy.  When a router (hop) is very busy ICMP traffic has low priority and gets delayed compared to other types of traffic such as UDP and TCP. Most web traffic is TCP or UDP

TCP traffic : HTTP web browsing, web applications, SMTP email, FTP transferring files, SSH encryption, secure remote access.
UDP traffic : DNS, DHCP, VoIP voice and video traffic, streaming, online gaming

UDP traffic is time critical.  You physically notice if applications in this layer lose packets.  Telephone voice becomes sturrery, videos become pixelated and gamers scream. As such this type of traffic usually always gets priority.
TCP type traffic can sustain some error loss. Its connection oriented and can make use of error correction algorithms to recover a certain amount of data.
ICMP traffic is diagnostic used to check network and report destination unreachable errors.

By default, the vast  T majority of routers are configured to give ICMP type traffic the lowest priority.  This gives to situations where the data packet could have reached its final destination, but the hop which is busy still hasnt responded to its 'is alive' message. There is good reason to give ICMP low priority - some routers have ICMP totally blocked.  If you have a busy network of course you would want customers using it for a video chat with the grandkids to get priority over and above what are basically probes from an outside source wanting info about the router.

----
Where I was going was the ping could be a red herring. I have heard reports that the vodafone modem does deprioraise ICMP - google it - you will see it is a real thing and why its not always a good diagnostic for FTTC connectivity 

It could be SNRM fluctuations making your connection unstable.
The vast majority of FTTC problems where connectivity is lost is due to SNRm and not latency.

[parkdale]

As per my first post, which why I put my Vodafone Router in the drawer, and inputted my Voda username and password into the Fritzbox I use... no more problems (for me).
Vodafone will supply your user name and password.

If you use Digital voice  ... but Voda can send you those as well, with a bit more arm twisting required 

[Chrysalis]

Thanks for replying to answer my question, as those ip's are local devices (or VPN), I mirror tubaman's suggestion, I think before you can point the finger at an external source you need to remedy that local packet loss.

[tubaman]

...
It's looking like change ISP and see if their router fixes it.

That sounds a bit extreme - why not just get a cheap secondhand router from eBay and see if that works.

[Gully.Moy]

I would have thought such high loss at first hop yet zero at last hop would confirm that the router is priortising traffic type.
....

However some routers can (and do) get very busy.  When a router (hop) is very busy ICMP traffic has low priority and gets delayed compared to other types of traffic such as UDP and TCP. Most web traffic is TCP or UDP

Let's not forget, this happens when all other devices are disconnected from router and it is just ping plotter sending pings with no other tracffic. Hell, it is even happening when the internet is unplugged and I am just pinging 198.162.1.1. Router CPU utilisation 5%. I take your point but I don't think the router is busy by any means.

It could be SNRM fluctuations making your connection unstable.
The vast majority of FTTC problems where connectivity is lost is due to SNRm and not latency.

Anything I can do about these?

That sounds a bit extreme - why not just get a cheap secondhand router from eBay and see if that works.

Yes, well it would be a modem I need, not a router right? I have a third party router network, but apparently they don't modem. Thing is I want to leave Vodafone anyway as my contract has expired. I just ideally wanted to see if I could sort this first, to see if I was switching to another OpenReach provider or if I had to cough up for Starlink!

Thanks for replying to answer my question, as those ip's are local devices (or VPN), I mirror tubaman's suggestion, I think before you can point the finger at an external source you need to remedy that local packet loss.

Absolutely, I suppose I was lead astray by Gemini telling me the packet loss at first hop was likely false. But since pinging the vodafone hub directly without any internet plugged in or devices connected, and still having the packet loss at hop 1, I think there has to be an issue with the hub. I just don't get why the old vodafone hub and the new one have exactly the same problem.

Weird thing on this - when I started trying to sort this problem, the packet loss was like 30% on hop 2 (Vodafone external IP), with occasional red bars on the ping plotter graph - No loss on hop 1... Then at some point I started getting these massive loss on hop 1 leading to these 'red sea' graphs. It happened after the first Openreach visit, but he didn't tough my Vodafone hub to laptop bit. I did get a firmware update from vodafone on the hub though shortly before this. I wonder if it is the new Vodafone firmware causing the issue. Because the new router also has the old firmware...

[parkdale]

Some graphs of my problem I had with Vodafone

[Alex Atkin UK]

Let's not forget, this happens when all other devices are disconnected from router and it is just ping plotter sending pings with no other tracffic.

Its not necessarily that the router is busy, its that it considers that traffic unimportant and may aggressively rate limit it, thus causing it to show as packet loss.

[meritez]

@Gully.Moy I guess you are too far away for WightFibre?

what does https://test-ipv6.com/ show for you?
if you make the THG3000 wan pingable, can you ping it from elsewhere on the internet and can you see those ping requests on the router?
how often has your ip address changed?

[Chrysalis]

I just had a thought if these devices have any kind of anti ddos feature, rate limiting type feature, that could potentially be causing packet loss on monitoring.  Its not unknown for firmware dev's to get a bit too aggressive on this stuff, but dont disable the core firewall of course.

[kitz]

You should be able to get some basic stats from the vodafone modem.  It would be good to at least check what the SNRm is all-beit static... and if you cant get it to work with routerstats for monitoring, you could perhaps check the figures first things in the morning, around tea-time and then again before you go to bed.   SNRm swings tend to occur at around 7-9 am when people are waking up and turning on electrical items.  Then evenings see most the most variance when people come home from school and work and until bedtime.

[kitz]

Some graphs of my problem I had with Vodafone

Thanks for sharing, thats pretty grim. 

What is interesting is the distinct appearance of a cyclic 6hr buildup.
Why on earth would they do that?   Which leads on quite nicely to this.....

Its not necessarily that the router is busy, its that it considers that traffic unimportant and may aggressively rate limit it, thus causing it to show as packet loss.

I just had a thought if these devices have any kind of anti ddos feature, rate limiting type feature, that could potentially be causing packet loss on monitoring.  Its not unknown for firmware dev's to get a bit too aggressive on this stuff, but dont disable the core firewall of course.

Indeed my thoughts too..  but also look at how parkdales graphs buildup.   Its almost as if perhaps its seeing the incoming ICMP requests for the graph monitoring and retaliates by ramping up the deprioritisation a step further.  Dont get the clearing back down after 6hrs though.

[Gully.Moy]

@Gully.Moy I guess you are too far away for WightFibre?

Yes, wish i could get Wightfibre

what does https://test-ipv6.com/ show for you?

"
test-ipv6.com will stay online! see status.test-ipv6.com

   Your IPv4 address on the public Internet appears to be 90.249.198.124

   Your Internet Service Provider (ISP) appears to be Vodafone

   No IPv6 address detected [more info]

   You appear to be able to browse the IPv4 Internet only. You will not be able to reach IPv6-only sites.

   To ensure the best Internet performance and connectivity, ask your ISP about native IPv6. [more info]

   Your DNS server (possibly run by your ISP) appears to have no access to the IPv6 Internet, or is not configured to use it. This may in the future restrict your ability to reach IPv6-only sites. [more info]
Your readiness score
0/10   for your IPv6 stability and readiness, when publishers are forced to go IPv6 only
"

if you make the THG3000 wan pingable, can you ping it from elsewhere on the internet and can you see those ping requests on the router?

Pinging my WAN seems to work ok:

"
Ping Result for IP: 90.249.198.124
Connected To    Response Time    TTL    No of Bytes
90.249.198.124    84.0 ms    50    64
90.249.198.124    83.5 ms    50    64
90.249.198.124    83.0 ms    50    64
90.249.198.124    83.5 ms    50    64
90.249.198.124    83.7 ms    50    64
Packet Summary
Sent    Received    Loss    Time
5    5    0%    4006 ms
Latency Summary
Min    Max    Avg    StdDev
83.056    84.018    83.575    0.314
"

Don't know if i can get more detail anywhere?

how often has your ip address changed?

No idea!

[Gully.Moy]

You should be able to get some basic stats from the vodafone modem.  It would be good to at least check what the SNRm is all-beit static... and if you cant get it to work with routerstats for monitoring, you could perhaps check the figures first things in the morning, around tea-time and then again before you go to bed.   SNRm swings tend to occur at around 7-9 am when people are waking up and turning on electrical items.  Then evenings see most the most variance when people come home from school and work and until bedtime.

I posted a full stats page from the THG3000 previously as an image attachment. I guess SNRm is the same as 'Signal-to-Noise Ratio' displyed? Currently 4.7 dB up 6 dB down. Very similar to when I posed before. Not great, but shouldn't make my router drop ping packets dirrectly when not even connected to the internet!?

Strangely though my router is behaving much better (though still not exactly 'well') today - packet loss below 10% on last hop (see attached). No changes made. some red bars still (much skinnier red bars than before because I can no longer select 60 second time frame since ping plotter trail has expired).

I just had a thought if these devices have any kind of anti ddos feature, rate limiting type feature, that could potentially be causing packet loss on monitoring.  Its not unknown for firmware dev's to get a bit too aggressive on this stuff, but dont disable the core firewall of course.

Actually I hav tried disabling firewall completely but it doesn't help. But this did correlate with firmware update.