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Author Topic: Zen FTTP curiosity  (Read 4748 times)

Alex Atkin UK

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Zen FTTP curiosity
« on: November 12, 2024, 02:16:57 AM »

It seems at some point this year my latency under load has tanked and peak speed reduced, likely related if I'm bottlenecking below the rate limiter at the ISP so now subject to buffer bloat.
But why this would still be the case at 2am?







This is also curious:
Code: [Select]
1  lo0-0.bng3.wh-man.zen.net.uk (51.148.77.130)  6.053 ms  6.463 ms  6.011 ms
2  lag-7.p1.wh-man.zen.net.uk (51.148.73.12)  11.220 ms lag-7.p2.wh-man.zen.net.uk (51.148.73.14)  10.767 ms  10.749 ms
3  be26.p1.thn-lon.zen.net.uk (51.148.244.49)  10.742 ms lag-3.p2.ixn-lon.zen.net.uk (51.148.73.228)  11.147 ms  11.091 ms

I know its called "lag-7" but I always thought that was link aggregation not latency.  ::)
I can only think that name is misleading and actually means FROM Manchester but is actually in London, as how would a single hop in Manchester gain so much latency and have next to no gain at the London router?

None of this has any real impact on me (that I'm aware of) but its a curious development.

I only thought to check this as my fibre went down last night for 90 minutes and I wondered if they had improved anything.
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Chrysalis

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Re: Zen FTTP curiosity
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2024, 04:30:48 AM »

I used to be a advocate of anti buffer bloat, felt it was the biggest evil on internet performance metrics.

But when you hitting saturation conditions, something has to happen, the ISP could buffer the packets, so they still arrive, just delayed.  This is buffer bloat.  Or they could drop everything above your line rate (or the rate limit they set which might be below your line rate), this will lower latency under load, but I think the consequences are more severe, as you now dealing with higher levels of packet loss.

You are more likely to get buffer bloat (as well as packet loss) if the congestion window is excessive, sadly not a uncommon occurrence these days, if the download is multi threaded (speedtest.net is), if the RTT is lower (as this makes it easier to overshoot congestion window), I think BBR also makes it more likely on fat pipes.

I am pretty sure Zen use link aggregation, that would potentially cause jitter if the links are not consistent latency, but I wouldnt expect to have an impact on buffer bloat, the interesting thing about those results, is the one's with higher load latency are also slightly slower.

You think this is related to the Zen Manchester gateway?

The hop 1 might be in Manchester, hop 2 in London, Manchester in the name maybe because its indicating its the link to Manchester.  I have seen hops named numerous times by ISPs by what they connecting to.

If everything is working still in all real world usage then thats the main thing that matters.

Finally, are all those speed tests from the same source? speedtest seems to love randomly selecting a server compared to using the same one every time.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2024, 04:33:05 AM by Chrysalis »
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Zen FTTP curiosity
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2024, 03:09:04 PM »

My thinking was Zen are limiting throughput to about 935Mbit which is why there seemed to be very little bloat, but now for some reason I'm congesting below that so more buffering is occurring.

I agree its not too much of an issue as saturating the connection during say gaming is always going to be a problem one way or another, why I would much prefer a faster service that is harder to actually saturate so I never have to think about it.

The only reason its still a concern is VoIP.  I'd rather stay away from QoS as it just complicates things, but a phone call coming in during a big download could be a problem.

Unfortunately the faster test as indicated used Zens speedtest server and 3 others, but the key point is letting it "do its thing" now produces worse results.  Its not so much the speed as my connection is never idle to get an accurate result, its the change in load latency for downloads I was looking at primarily.

I can't remember if I were using Manchester gateway before, I think I probably was as London usually adds a few more ms of latency.  That was always curious as given I'm in Sheffield, Manchester would seem like a detour in the wrong direction.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2024, 03:12:44 PM by Alex Atkin UK »
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Dwight

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Re: Zen FTTP curiosity
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2024, 08:11:00 AM »

Hi Alex,
Have you used Waveform at all.
It also looks for buffer bloat on broadband.

https://www.waveform.com/
Regards.
Dwight.
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Zen FTTP curiosity
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2024, 02:05:31 PM »

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Chrysalis

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Re: Zen FTTP curiosity
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2024, 07:06:44 PM »

Interesting test, here is my result.

No QoS configured.

https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=32467b36-6ed8-43ed-8b61-d464b352bb66

Maybe you can ask Zen, let them know you have noticed the characteristics of your connection has changed, without you adjusting your own equipment.  Throw in VOIP is playing up so there is something with substance in the query.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2024, 07:29:14 PM by Chrysalis »
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Dwight

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Re: Zen FTTP curiosity
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2024, 01:35:37 PM »

Interesting test, here is my result.

No QoS configured.

https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=32467b36-6ed8-43ed-8b61-d464b352bb66

Maybe you can ask Zen, let them know you have noticed the characteristics of your connection has changed, without you adjusting your own equipment.  Throw in VOIP is playing up so there is something with substance in the query.

It's interesting that a symetrical service is A but asymetric like Alex and mine are C.  :hmm: :hmm:
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Chrysalis

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Re: Zen FTTP curiosity
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2024, 05:50:18 PM »

It's interesting that a symetrical service is A but asymetric like Alex and mine are C.  :hmm: :hmm:

That I think shouldnt affect the behaviour of the downstream test?

Did you post a link to your own test?
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Dwight

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Re: Zen FTTP curiosity
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2024, 06:08:23 PM »

That I think shouldnt affect the behaviour of the downstream test?

Did you post a link to your own test?
No sorry, it was a C similar to Alex's.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2024, 10:14:20 AM by Dwight »
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doofus

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Re: Zen FTTP curiosity
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2024, 06:49:28 PM »

I have asymmetric 1000/115.

If I set no qos, I will score A
If i set upload qos (cake) only, I will score A
If i set upload and download qos (cake), i can score A+ easily enough.

https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=10393ce9-4503-4cef-93bd-514f853db7a9

As expected I guess:
Less than 5 ms latency increase - A+
Less than 30 ms latency increase - A
Less than 60 ms latency increase - B
Less than 200 ms latency increase - C
Less than 400 ms latency increase - D
400 ms or greater latency increase - F

Chrysalis

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Re: Zen FTTP curiosity
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2024, 07:51:48 PM »

Yeah cake is very good if you dont like buffer bloat, thanks for the test doofus.
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Craig

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Re: Zen FTTP curiosity
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2024, 09:49:47 AM »

I have a 1000/115 service via a Zen reseller, and I have noticed that my speeds have been all over the place this year (see attached).

I've raised it a few times, and Zen keep going back to the reseller saying "the speed to the ONT is fine" etc etc and refuse to accept/acknowledge there's anything wrong.
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Chrysalis

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Re: Zen FTTP curiosity
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2024, 04:29:05 PM »

Yeah you got muddied ownership of whos involved in that, OR for the GPON, Zen for the wholesale, then the reseller for the core and transit.
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Zen FTTP curiosity
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2024, 06:08:02 PM »

I was actually wondering if the delay in them launching the 2Gbit services is that they still haven't got their own backhaul under control.

Its interesting that they don't have presence in my exchange when it covers the largest number of residential properties in Sheffield, if I recall correctly.

Is there any way to check exchange information these days?  I believe SamKnows stopped doing it?
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j0hn

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Re: Zen FTTP curiosity
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2024, 11:22:39 PM »

Is there any way to check exchange information these days?  I believe SamKnows stopped doing it?

They stopped updating a long time ago. It shows my exchange as having no Zen or Virgin presence which is many many years out of date.
They no longer do the white boxes either.

They were bought by Cisco and now their business looks to be focused on speed test software built directly in to the ISP CPE.
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Talktalk FTTP 550/75 - Speedtest - BQM
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