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Author Topic: Connection issues and Bridge Tap runaround  (Read 1631 times)

LLG

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Connection issues and Bridge Tap runaround
« on: November 23, 2023, 01:32:56 PM »

Hi all, I thought I'd check with the experts here about an issue I've been facing with my ISP and I want to know if I'm being given the runaround by the OR Engineer I've been dealing with.

I'm on a VDSL2 line, which I've been on for several years with the same ISP (EE). Absolutely no issues, I usually get around 67-72Mbps down and around 13-18Mbps up.

A few months around, there was some major road resurfacing work going on on the main roads, right outside my street. This was happening on sundays. During that time my connection speed would gradually get slower and drop constantly. From around Monday-Wednesday it would do this before righting itself towards the end of the week. Roll onto sunday again and rinse and repeat.

During an issue/period of instability, I reported this to EE via the SMS bot, which figured out there was a problem and organised for an engineer to visit.

Now, the engineer that came is a nice lad and very personable. He arrived and checked some things out with a PDA he had and said that there was a potential bridge tap and briefly explained what one is. He complained about the sockets in the house (they weren't BT, put in by contractors) and explained how they often naff up the internal wiring and this can cause issues.

I think nothing of this and accept his explanation. I didn't want to move the router into the hallway, which was his suggestion, to connect it to the master socket, so instead he re-wired the sockets such that the socket I was using is now the master socket and no other socket in the house works. He also changed the socket to one that includes the filter inside the box, so I only need to use an RJ-11 cable to my modem router.

Now, at this point, it's probably a thursday or friday. My connection issues were subsiding. I'd been reading about OpenReach's DLMs and what they do. I guessed that I'd been put onto a DLM band lower than normal due to the issues. Confident that his socket change and re-wiring had done the job, and as I was asking about the DLM, he offered to perform a DLM reset. I eagerly said yes, he did the reset and I was put into the 40-80 band (by the looks of it).

Everything was pretty good for about a month when speeds started to suffer again. The roadworks were over and done with, thankfully. I reported the fault, same engineer comes to my house. At the door, we chatted and he suggested a DLM reset again (or, maybe I did, I don't know). He happily reset and went on his way.

Another month rolls by, speeds start to suffer again.

I haven't mentioned my kit, yet, so, at this point I was using an Asus DSL-AC88U modem/router. It's been fine for years and years. I also have a pair of Asus ZenWifi XT8 Mesh routers. They were in AP mode and the DSL-AC88U was acting as the modem. Prior to the issues starting up, I'd used this kit for years without an issue. I've always used a custom/third-party router as I do a bit of networking and have a home NAS, etc and prefer the flexibility.

So, the problems are back. I've been trying to use my DSL-AC88U with my android phone to tether as a backup/failover WAN. It wasn't working. I decided to throw the towel in with the DSL modem and buy a Draytek Vigor 167 Bridge Modem and use the ZenWifi Mesh as the router

Set up the new kit, seems to work well enough but my problems persist. I also have weird packet loss, which I don't end up figuring out for a couple of days. This was due to connecting the Dreytek up to an unmanaged switch to access the Web UI page. This caused some weird loop on my network and made me suffer packet loss.

I report the problem again, engineer is assigned again, it's the same guy, again. This time he changed his tune entirely. Told me he can't keep doing DLM resets, which is fair enough, that he'll get a bollocking as the DLM cards will burn out and then starts blaming the equipment I've got at home and saying it's causing a bridge tap. He showed me the GEA report that shows this. That if he comes out and finds that it's my equipment, he might have to charge me.

This sent me of a path of researching a bridge tap and what it is and how it happens.I don't see how a bridge tap can suddenly form in my internal house wiring, or how "some kit you've plugged in" can cause it when I've connected a well known and respectable brand of modem and that's it.

My current connection speeds are 30Mbps down and 13MBps up and have been locked at this for about 6 weeks now, which should have been enough time for the DLM to move profiles or do something.

Now, sorry for the long post. TL;DR?

Am I being given the runaround? How is it possible that, despite changing nothing in the internal wiring in my house, that I can suddenly develop a bridge tap? Is it even possible for something I plug into my router to cause a bridge tap at home?

I want to report the problem again because at the current speeds are way below the guaranteed minimum and literally half of what I'm paying. I feel like the changes I've made at home have all been in response to having issues and none of them can have contributed to the issue. I feel like the issue is outside my house, but I don't know what to do if the engineer comes and plugs into the master socket and shows the clean/non-impacted speeds?

Help!

edit:

I've added some screenshots from the Dreytek WebUI page. Even the max attainable rate has dropped. The max attainable rate used to be pretty much 79999 and 19999, and actual link speeds being around 74000 and 18000 (give or take)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2023, 01:59:42 PM by LLG »
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Connection issues and Bridge Tap runaround
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2023, 09:11:53 PM »

Definitely sounds like a run around to me, as how can he say its your kit that is causing a bridge tap if he already "fixed" your wiring?  If there is still a problem internally, he should have fixed it.  As that is now your official master socket, all that wiring is now his problem, not yours.

Now ASUS are not regarded as good for DSL, not sure about that specific Draytek model, I think it varies.  But if he is detecting a bridge tap, that literally is with only his test equipment connected so its clearly not your equipments problem.
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tubaman

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Re: Connection issues and Bridge Tap runaround
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2023, 07:56:36 AM »

Total nonsense from that 'engineer'! If he's previously moved your master socket and fitted the type with a filtered face-plate (assume NTE5c?) then all wiring before that socket is now Openreach's responsibility. As for 'DLM cards burning out', well I don't know what to say!
What is odd here is that it sounds like the connection works fine for some time after a DLM reset and also that your SNR is showing as 5.4dB which doesn't indicate a banded connection.
The fact that it all started when there were roadworks in progress makes me wonder if there is something going on with the wiring under there.
I'd say that you need to ask your ISP to escalate this as it sounds like the Openreach chap isn't doing his job now for some reason.
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LLG

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Re: Connection issues and Bridge Tap runaround
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2023, 10:46:34 AM »

Definitely sounds like a run around to me, as how can he say its your kit that is causing a bridge tap if he already "fixed" your wiring?  If there is still a problem internally, he should have fixed it.  As that is now your official master socket, all that wiring is now his problem, not yours.

Now ASUS are not regarded as good for DSL, not sure about that specific Draytek model, I think it varies.  But if he is detecting a bridge tap, that literally is with only his test equipment connected so its clearly not your equipments problem.

Yeah, if I'm right, the GEA test is only between the master socket and his test equipment back in the exchange, right? He didn't come here to do the test, he sent it via text. It was definitely my line, etc, as I could verify the modem serial number and firmware version.

The Draytek modem actually got me a higher theoretical up/down sync speed for a few days after it was installed. I've also noticed it's SIN498 certified.

Total nonsense from that 'engineer'! If he's previously moved your master socket and fitted the type with a filtered face-plate (assume NTE5c?) then all wiring before that socket is now Openreach's responsibility. As for 'DLM cards burning out', well I don't know what to say!
What is odd here is that it sounds like the connection works fine for some time after a DLM reset and also that your SNR is showing as 5.4dB which doesn't indicate a banded connection.
The fact that it all started when there were roadworks in progress makes me wonder if there is something going on with the wiring under there.
I'd say that you need to ask your ISP to escalate this as it sounds like the Openreach chap isn't doing his job now for some reason.

The new socket looks exactly like this



Yeah the issue here is I'm not a telecoms engineer or an electrical engineer... But I am a computer scientist, programmer and work within the cloud and what he's saying doesn't add up to me. He's mentioned "capacitors" between the wall and the modem which also would've made me laugh if I weren't the one dealing with it! I had to take the "DLM cards burning out" at face value, though. I don't know any better!

Yeah, the roadworks took a little while to figure out but it went on for 6 weeks. Full road resurfacing. My line is via a pole at the end of the street where it then goes under ground. The ground where it would probably go under was actually largely untouched by the resurfacing as they only did the main road, not the street.

With regards to banding, the only thing I can see really is that the downstream is interleaved and not fast and when running speed tests it hits a 30Mbps wall very quickly.
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LLG

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Re: Connection issues and Bridge Tap runaround
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2024, 06:13:38 PM »

Thought I'd come and update this topic

I got back in touch with the engineer today as speeds had slowly increased up to 38Mbps from 30Mbps, so I figured the DLM was reacting and slowly pushing me up through the bands. He did a DLM reset for me, which actually made things worse? Speeds dropped back to 30Mbps.

He ran another test and said it come back with Crosstalk and RF Ingress, which was different to last time we checked.

I'm still not getting the speeds but I've been advised to report to the ISP and let them book something in.
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Edinburgh_lad

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Re: Connection issues and Bridge Tap runaround
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2024, 10:32:26 PM »

Openreach in my area are programmed to blame customers' equipment, if knowing that it's their poorly maintained network is the problem. I had two years of that keech, and enough was enough: I complained to Openreach CEO twice. My neighbours, both immediate and beyond, were also told it was their equipment, so dully, they ordered new equipment from their ISPs to find no improvement. I wish serious newspapers would finally show interest in those charlatans and their dirty tricks.   

From my experience: Draytek doesn't handle noisy/problematic lines very well.
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j0hn

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Re: Connection issues and Bridge Tap runaround
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2024, 12:52:35 PM »

Openreach in my area are programmed to blame customers' equipment, if knowing that it's their poorly maintained network is the problem.

No they aren't. I live about a mile from you.

You've just had bad experiences with them but that doesn't mean you have to make stuff up.

Most of the "Openreach" engineers who visit around here are Kelly Communications.
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Edinburgh_lad

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Re: Connection issues and Bridge Tap runaround
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2024, 02:26:01 AM »

Seriously, I can show you ISPs notes from Openreach: WiFi issue. Nearly all of them. Honestly, I'm not making this up; on the contrary, it's all evidence based. Plus, what the other locals have said.

And maybe I was 'lucky' but at the time it was Openreach, not Kelly.
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LLG

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Re: Connection issues and Bridge Tap runaround
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2024, 06:50:37 PM »

My issues definitely aren't WiFi related :D

I called my ISP today and reported the issue to them.

They said using my own equipment isn't an issue (as I suspected) and she asked if I've always used my own kit, which I have, of course.

I've got an engineer coming tomorrow and I sincerely hope it's not the same guy.
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LLG

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Re: Connection issues and Bridge Tap runaround
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2024, 09:22:41 AM »

Well...

In case anyone is still following. Thankfully, a different engineer come out.

The problem? The connection was not crimped properly in the cabinet and was only syncing at about 40Mbps there, where it should've been 80Mbps (since it's the cabinet). He crimped the connection and also replaced something in the junction box that sits outside the house (as he correctly guessed it hadn't been done since the houses were built)

All that faff and hassle and runaround by the initial engineer  :-X

Connection is back up to what I used to get before the issues arose, in fact, slightly higher (I suspect thanks to the Draytek).

« Last Edit: January 16, 2024, 09:24:46 AM by LLG »
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