Kitz ADSL Broadband Information
adsl spacer  
Support this site
Home Broadband ISPs Tech Routers Wiki Forum
 
     
   Compare ISP   Rate your ISP
   Glossary   Glossary
 
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Author Topic: What are these harmonics on this SNR plot?  (Read 1865 times)

GreatWhiteNorth

  • Just arrived
  • *
  • Posts: 2
What are these harmonics on this SNR plot?
« on: July 04, 2023, 01:42:07 AM »

Please excuse the intrusion from the other side of the Atlantic, but this seems to be the only English-speaking forum with people who have a deep technical understanding of xDSL.

Can anyone shed some light on what these repeating harmonics are on my SNR per bin and (inverted) hlog graphs?

This is from my profile 8b VDSL2+ connection in Canada.

My connection works fine; I'm just curious what could be causing these harmonics. Does this look like AC mains interference or is it from something higher frequency?
Logged

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33888
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: What are these harmonics on this SNR plot?
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2023, 03:52:21 PM »

Hi and welcome. That certainly forms a pretty pattern if nothing else :)

On a more serious note, I would guess that it is caused by a combination of some form of spectral shaping performed by the service provider and the bit-load algorithm they use.  Are you a fair distance from the cab?  Is your cab far from the exchange?
Most of any spectral shaping occurs in tones up to 512 to protect adsl/2/2+. Upstream tones U1 usually centered at around tone 1050 are usually heavily shaped to give protection to long lines from the cab.  D2 can also experience shaping.  Tones in U2 and any above tone 2000 are less likely to be shaped.   

There's many different masks used for spectral shaping, the mask allocated to your line will depend on certain factors such as how close you are to the exchange, how close you are to the cabinet, your atten/power, noise from neighbouring lines, performance of neighbouring lines.  Modern spectral shaping is dynamic and can change based upon line factors at each sync.

Im therefore not at all surprised to see lines shaped below tone 1984. Hlog shows a nice smooth transition across the spectrum of your usable tones.

If I understand you correctly, you are specifically enquiring about the visible wave pattern across all the useable tones. Due to the fact that the waves are very regular and smooth is what at first steered me towards method of bitload.  In the UK, Openreach uses the waterfill method for bitloading, this causes a more blocky image similar to that on top of a castle, yours are more rounded but extremely regular.  It's possible your SP is using one of the different algorithms for bit load.
 
However, there is something else that cannot be completely ruled out because I have very limited facts about your line and if it is under performing. The hlog & qln graphs can show line impairment such as a bridge tap or cross talk respectively. Using the distance between valleys in the wave its possible to calculate things such as tap length. There are special engineer tools that can analyse the frequency of the first dip and width of repeating wave then use a formula to pin point the tap length.  I've never before seen such a narrow and shallow wave.  If you look closely on most line's QLN, then the SNR is constantly showing small up and down variances of a few dB from the neighbouring tone.   If it is some sort of line impairment, then an engineer with a JDSU would immediately be able to identify.
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

GreatWhiteNorth

  • Just arrived
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: What are these harmonics on this SNR plot?
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2023, 07:15:14 PM »

Hey, thanks for the response.

There's about 450 meters of wire between me and the exchange. FTTC was never deployed here so there's no cabinet.

I'm not clear about something. The graphs I posted originally are hlog and measured SNR per tone, not bits per tone. If spectral shaping is adjusting the bitload of specific bins, would this be visible on an SNR graph? In other words, if the DSLAM limits bitload in certain tones will the modem perceive those tones as having  a worse SNR?

In this message I've attached bits/bin and qln graphs.

If the DSLAM is limiting its power output in certain tones then shouldn't shape of the the bits/bin graph match shape of the snr/bin graph exactly? I'd expect that limiting output power in certain tones would cut the usable bits in the tone, leading to identically shaped snr/bin and bitload graphs, but this is not what I'm seeing.

I feel I'm missing something?
Logged

boozy

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
Re: What are these harmonics on this SNR plot?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2023, 11:11:40 AM »

If it’s a bridge tap it’s around 100-130m long - so not in your house. The raw HLog data would allow me to give an accurate length but I don’t think that would add anything as my calculations can’t tell how far from the modem the start of the tap is.

David
Logged

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33888
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: What are these harmonics on this SNR plot?
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2023, 03:56:00 PM »

>>  are hlog and measured SNR per tone, not bits per tone.

Apols Im having a quite a bad MS flare and words are jumbling today and I cant seem to separate the [your] words. Unfort its the reason I'm not able to post often these days. Its frustrating when you know the answer but communicating that answer is another matter.

Anyhow I hope this answers.  You can usually see the affects of spectral shaping and PCB in graphs produced by DSLstats for SNRMargin
SNR per tone will be affected by spectral shaping and does affect bit load.  Hlog isnt. QLN is.
Yes the modem will see a lower SNRm due to any PSDmasks applied by the MSAN.

It works by cutting back the power in the modem transmitter at those tones, thus reducing the available bit load.
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker