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Author Topic: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?  (Read 10439 times)

XGS_Is_On

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2022, 08:36:24 PM »

Some. Much of it relates to scale and how their networks interact with customers. WMBC is much of muchness. WBC is somewhat more complex with those taking GEA feeds from Openreach and altnets a level up.

Mostly about how much work the carrier does and how much traffic you're shifting.

Acquisitions may be handled in a number of ways with added complexity transitory. Beef up your capacity, move the acquired ISP behind your AS, retire the redundant transit and peering, have the carrier migrate them to your interconnects, retire the old ones.

Some steps may be carried out simultaneously.
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craigski

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2022, 08:51:39 AM »

I'm struggling to understand what is the 'real world' use case for this single thread performance, that is often discussed?

Vast majority of use cases would be household/office with multiple users using multiple devices running multiple applications connecting to remote services on multiple remote networks, all sharing the available bandwidth, ie multiples of multi threaded connections. So is single thread performance important for network design?
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bogof

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2022, 10:52:38 AM »

While many applications do scale things to multiple threads, a lot don't.  VPN tunnelled traffic would be one such example (there are VPNs that support multiple threads, but they're not the most common).   Frequently software updates won't, neither will video streaming, etc.

But here it's being used as a ready-reckoner gauge for how likely a provider network is to be well-implemented.  If they've got high single threaded performance then it's unlikely to be the weak link.  If single threaded performance is lower then you might expect there are bottlenecks somewhere in the network that you're connected to, which might or might not become a factor in your usage. 

My main reason for having a 900Mbps is not because I want to push >200 terabytes a month down a piece of glass.  In terms of the amount of data we use in this house; I could get away with an 80Mbps connection.  It's because I'm wanting to pay not to have to wait even a second more for things to happen than I have to.  Software updates, video streams starting up, large downloads, etc.  In the case of the Zen GEA connection I've noted that I often have to scale to an obscene number of connections to achieve close to line rate for a given download (eg the TBB large files).  So even allowing for a web browser applying some multithreading, it's still much slower than you'd expect.

Given that with the exception of a couple of notable outliers that pricing is broadly similar for FTTP900 providers, if there is opportunity to have a better service by understanding the behaviour of the provider's networks then it's a consumer win, and if awareness of the performance of provider networks stirs providers into looking after their bits a little more, then that's also a win. :)  It's hard to see there being any downside other than the cost in my own time / effort to investigate.

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Weaver

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2022, 02:41:20 AM »

I just had a peep and I have 12 TB remaining AA quota in total. For fun, I just wrote a small iOS Shortcuts program for my iPad to query the AA quota remaining by using http.
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bogof

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2022, 07:55:37 AM »

I just had a peep and I have 12 TB remaining AA quota in total. For fun, I just wrote a small iOS Shortcuts program for my iPad to query the AA quota remaining by using http.
If I had that much quota available, and it didn't look like I was
on track to be using it, I'd be looking at how to automate quota changes... ;)

I worked out that I could manage my 2.5TB a month usage with 2 months at 10TB and 2 months at 1TB (assuming the accumulated quota bonus rolls over even when you change tarrif)
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parkdale

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2022, 10:27:10 AM »

With https://www.noone.co.uk/ I see you can have 900Mb Bt fibre and fixed ip £52.99 24 months or their gaming side https://www.leetline.co.uk/pricing.html
City fibre is much cheaper and you get symmetrical speeds if it's available.... 
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bogof

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2022, 11:34:02 AM »

With https://www.noone.co.uk/ I see you can have 900Mb Bt fibre and fixed ip £52.99 24 months or their gaming side https://www.leetline.co.uk/pricing.html
City fibre is much cheaper and you get symmetrical speeds if it's available....
No City fibre here at the moment, they're rolling out in Norwich but I doubt it will come to our courtyard.  Not managed to speak to anyone who could make it happen yet.

Looks like they're what was Trunk Networks, probably using Talk Talk backhaul to their own network?
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parkdale

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2022, 11:48:32 AM »

Looks like they're what was Trunk Networks, probably using Talk Talk backhaul to their own network?
https://www.extremenetworks.com/resources/case-study/trunk-networks-offers-dedicated-broadband-service-for-gamers-powered-by-extreme-networks/

I think there all part of the same...
If I had full fibre ....  :'( no chance this side of 2026 whenever, Leetline would be my chioce.

Down in Havant Hampshire my mate had City Fibre doing the works on behalf of Open Reach, but looking at Fibre providers, only BT products are available... no City Fibre!
« Last Edit: October 11, 2022, 11:52:20 AM by parkdale »
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j0hn

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2022, 11:55:58 AM »

Down in Havant Hampshire my mate had City Fibre doing the works on behalf of Open Reach, but looking at Fibre providers, only BT products are available... no City Fibre!

Definitely some confusion there.

CityFibre don't even do their own work never mind anyone elses.
Quite the opposite. They used to contract out all their work to 3rd party companies.
Now much of their rollout is done over Openreach infrastructure.

CityFibre are not and never have been an approved Openreach subcontractor working on behalf of Openreach.

CityFibre are currently rolling out their own network in Havant Hampshire.
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2022/05/cityfibre-commit-gbp17m-to-build-full-fibre-broadband-in-havant.html

Your mate will have seen CF rolling out their own network. It just isn't live yet. It's a very new rollout.

I assume by "BT products" you mean Openreach?
There isn't a single address in the country where only BT Broadband is available.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2022, 12:04:05 PM by j0hn »
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Chrysalis

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2022, 05:45:43 PM »

You get to carry half of what you didn't use   I did the math and I think the most it ever grows to is  just under 2*(monthly quota - monthly usage).   So you can only get close to 20TB if you basically don't use it at all...

It's not a concern for me though, I'd have to have some kind of bandwidth leak accident to even get above 2TB.  I think in my case I could cover my usage with 2 months on 10TB followed by 2 months on 1TB, assuming they let you carry still when you change quota level.

I am pretty sure I usually have double the official quota and maybe I practically dont use it in your words dont know, I average a few hundred gigs per month.

Right now its 14.6tb but they only just switching to the higher amount, so I will have a look again in November or December.
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parkdale

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2022, 05:54:24 PM »

So within a month or so, of City Fibre/Metro networks digging holes and clearing ducts in his road and on the pavement outside his house driveway! Openreach full fibre went live...

It could be pure coincidence but one never knows

Upon trying his phone/postcode in, now shows he can order FTTP at his address (Via Openreach network)
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Chrysalis

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2022, 05:56:45 PM »

So within a month or so, of City Fibre/Metro networks digging holes and clearing ducts in his road and on the pavement outside his house driveway! Openreach full fibre went live...

It could be pure coincidence but one never knows

Upon trying his phone/postcode in, now shows he can order FTTP at his address (Via Openreach network)

Openreach have started works in my city (student areas), and I bet they will be live far earlier than cityfibre who have done works and not enabled streets the best part of a year later.
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bogof

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2022, 07:24:11 PM »

I am pretty sure I usually have double the official quota and maybe I practically dont use it in your words dont know, I average a few hundred gigs per month.

Right now its 14.6tb but they only just switching to the higher amount, so I will have a look again in November or December.
Sounds like maybe you're over paying for bandwidth you don't need then?

I had a pleasant call with with Mikey from AAISP sales support today, I'm going to go with them.  The 10TB Home:1 package has more than enough download allowance for my usage to not be an issue, and even the sales support was really knowledgeable about the product and implementation.  It's a bit more money than I can get something from a mainstream provider, but if that buys me into knowing the network is being run by folk who are actually interested in peak performance, and largely avoids me wasting time running tests to characterise someone else's lacklustre effort, then it will be money well spent, and free up my thinking time for more gainful tasks.
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2022, 07:26:36 PM »

It's a bit more money than I can get something from a mainstream provider, but if that buys me into knowing the network is being run by folk who are actually interested in peak performance, and largely avoids me wasting time running tests to characterise someone else's lacklustre effort, then it will be money well spent, and free up my thinking time for more gainful tasks.

To think, we were only recently pondering if AAISP would still have value once FTTP becomes the norm.  Apparently in the short term at least, they still do.
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bogof

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Re: High performance Openreach FTTP 900 options?
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2022, 07:44:20 PM »

To think, we were only recently pondering if AAISP would still have value once FTTP becomes the norm.  Apparently in the short term at least, they still do.
Well it's been a thankless, frustrating and ultimately futile time sink for me in recent months trying to get to the bottom of why Zen's network wasn't performant for me; if I can avoid that sort of thing in future then there is some value there, for sure.  I was already paying £63 a month for Zen so at £85 it's not >that< big of a premium (given I don't actually need unlimited).
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