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[Weaver]

It’s not to do with detections; the enforced wait times/listen times in the ofcom rules make DFS channels unusable for me. I can’t have a channel moving for ten minutes just because of that stupid algorithm, and that is exactly what is observed just now, the WAPs don’t obey my settings at all. I set one to channel 100 say and it immediately goes to channel 36 on top of another radio.

Anyway, this thread is intended to be about Aruba, not about general considerations or personal priorities; yours will rightly be different to mine, and I’m thinking more the way you did with your switch.

I’m trying to find good Aruba prices, so tips for shops would be appreciated. A lot of shops sell the APxx ‘instanton’ ones and those are out; it’s only the 600 series that I’m looking at. (After reading various Ofcom docs.)

[Alex Atkin UK]

It only moves if it actually detects radar, otherwise it will do it only once when you boot up the AP or change settings, not something you need to do often.

Like I said, I had a lot of false detections on older devices, never had a DFS hit at all since I moved to later ac and ax APs.

Plus again, the point is moot when none of your existing devices support 6Ghz so it doesn't bypass the issue.

[tubaman]

With my current hardware I have indeed run out of free channels unless I go to 20 MHz wide instead of 40 MHz wide as I’m steering clear of the DFS channels which are a joke and I can’t use 5.8 GHz channels at the moment. With 40 MHz wide channels and my current 4 radios, I have 2.4 GHz 1+6; 5 GHz 36+40; 5 GHz 44+48 and I can’t use 52 upwards. And that it. And that means I have one radio disabled because there’s nowhere for it to live without going to 20 MHz channels. To address a point someone made earlier. The SSIDs’s names are the same on all WAPs.

A mesh system would make this problem go away as the WAPs wouldn't need to be on separate channels. With your current setup what would be the problem with using 20Mhz channels as they'd still easily max-out your internet connection?

If you are getting the impression that I am very much against spending money if I can get existing kit to do what I need then you'd be 100% correct.

[Weaver]

I’m not trying to max out my current internet connection. I want high bandwidth within the LAN.

[tubaman]

I’m not trying to max out my current internet connection. I want high bandwidth within the LAN.

If you need that for moving large amounts of data around the LAN then it makes sense of course. I have no need to do that and as long as my WiFi runs at least as fast as my internet connection, which is circa 40Mbps, then I'm content. Doubtless when (if??) FTTP gets to me I'll be revisiting the capabilities of my current equipment but until that time it serves me and my family just fine.

[craigski]

Something else to consider. The 'enterprise' AP models using newer WiFi standards are really designed for high density deployments, schools, stadiums, hotels,  etc,  rather than 'home' use with just a handful of wireless devices. To achieve this you will find the spec will show they consume more electricity, even when idle, possibly even double a 'consumer' AP.

In a month or so, electricity price cap will be 52p per kWh, so I make that approx, for every 10W standby consumption will add £50 per year to your electricity bill. Soon adds up when you have multiple network devices on 24/7.

[XGS_Is_On]

I’m trying to find good Aruba prices, so tips for shops would be appreciated. A lot of shops sell the APxx ‘instanton’ ones and those are out; it’s only the 600 series that I’m looking at. (After reading various Ofcom docs.)

Purely personal thoughts.

The 600-series are new and difficult to obtain due to supply chain issues so demand outstrips supply and special offers from retailers that'll sell to end users are unlikely.

You're looking at about £1000 + VAT per AP for the AP-635, about £1900 + VAT per AP for the 655, if you can actually find somewhere that has them in stock rather than pre-orders while they await it.

This kit has a huge amount of functionality. Management through Aruba Central mandatory with AOS 10, an Aruba Controller or standalone being one, integration with Aruba switches, access lists, 802.1x, Clearpass integration, zero trust networking, dynamic microsegmentation, etc. These access points are part of an entire end to end solution suite so you're going to be paying for a lot more than just the radios.

If you still want to purchase them snap up any that you come across that are in stock and at approximately the pricing I mentioned above unless A&A have a supplier that gives them a discount on HPE equipment.

[gt94sss2]

I've just learned that as well as the Wi-Fi 6 and 6E update – there is also a newer Wi-Fi 6 Release 2  which was announced in January!

[Alex Atkin UK]

Wi-Fi Certified 6 Release 2 has several improvements when compared to the two previous Wi-Fi 6 standards. The press release highlights the improvements in the following way:

Wi-Fi CERTIFIED 6 Release 2 adds support for uplink multi-user multiple input, multiple output (multi-user MIMO) to deliver smoother streaming services and video conferencing, faster uploads, and more reliable gaming. Additionally, three power management features improve Wi-Fi CERTIFIED 6 power efficiency, benefitting enterprise, industrial, and Internet of Things (IoT) applications. New features apply across all bands supported by Wi-Fi 6 – 2.4 GHz, 5 GHz and 6 GHz - bringing capacity, efficiency, coverage and performance benefits to residential, enterprise, and large public networks. Wi-Fi CERTIFIED 6 delivers the best experience with advanced applications, while providing strong WPA3™ security and promoting interoperability between Wi-Fi CERTIFIED™ devices.

Wi-Fi Certified 6 Release 2 includes support for 6 GHz, which means that it supersedes both Wi-Fi 6 and Wi-Fi 6E. New features include improved Wi-Fi uplink performance by adding support for uplink multi-user MIMO. The addition enables "devices to upload content concurrently to an access point".

Uplink multi-user MIMO improves network performance and reduces latency while video conferencing, uploading documents, and any other mission-critical applications that require greater uplink capacity.

The new version of the standard improves power management as well by introducing new power management features and improvements in Enterprise and IoT environments.

New low power and sleep mode enhancements – including broadcast target wake time (TWT), extended sleep time, and dynamic multi-user spatial multiplexing power save (SMPS)– enable power optimization of multiple battery powered devices. This trio of features allow multiple devices to receive extended sleep periods, allow for specific “wake up” times for transmitting data, and enable dynamic shut off of redundant receive chains to optimize power consumption in Wi-Fi CERTIFIED 6 Release 2 networks.

I'm still dubious MU-MIMO even works so not sure that's worth worrying about. TWT is also supposed to already exist in the original spec I believe.

I think this is partly a revision to try to get around their utterly stupid previous decision of WiFi 6 having "optional" functionality like TWT.

[d2d4j]

Hi

If you have never tried wifi 6 latest version or seen mu-mimo in action, I understand you post but when you have seen and experienced it, you know the difference it makes.

We installed a full wifi6 mesh to cover a 4 floor building, carparks etc... and the client is amazed.  They use a lot of teams meetings so use the full functions of internet, web, email, video

To show you speed, here is a picture of 1 node from 3 floors away from root node.

If the client waited for wifi 7, there would then be a higher better version just a round the corner, so they needed it now and will work with latest newest apple iphones, ipads etc... which I will look out for as they have now ordered a quantity to replace their current iphone 13 etc...

Many thanks

John

[Alex Atkin UK]

I think the problem is MU-MIMO is hard to test except in a real environment.  While in theory you'd think it would allow two 2x2 clients to run concurrently on a 4x4 AP, it doesn't seem to work out that way.  With a client either side of the AP (so nearest different antennas), the speed still split evenly between them in my own testing.

My understanding though is its not MU-MIMO that is doing what you are describing (except perhaps beamforming boosting the signal strength), that is what OFDMA is for.  In theory MU-MIMO would increase the bandwidth available for that, but again I haven't seen anyone confirm it actually works and my own limited testing suggests it does not.  Maybe it only works when you are far enough away from the AP that you only receive a signal from one or two antennas rather than all four though?

Also seen a few reviews claim MU-MIMO has so much overhead, it cancels out any benefit.  Of course all these reviews were from the first revision so its possible MU-MIMO now working upstream makes a much bigger difference as it should reduce the overhead of upstream traffic.

[meritez]

Hi

If you have never tried wifi 6 latest version or seen mu-mimo in action, I understand you post but when you have seen and experienced it, you know the difference it makes.

We installed a full wifi6 mesh to cover a 4 floor building, carparks etc... and the client is amazed.  They use a lot of teams meetings so use the full functions of internet, web, email, video

To show you speed, here is a picture of 1 node from 3 floors away from root node.

If the client waited for wifi 7, there would then be a higher better version just a round the corner, so they needed it now and will work with latest newest apple iphones, ipads etc... which I will look out for as they have now ordered a quantity to replace their current iphone 13 etc...

Many thanks

John

Apple has yet to move from Wi-Fi 6 ax on their new 14 range.

[j0hn]

Apple has yet to move from Wi-Fi 6 ax on their new 14 range.

He didn't say any different?

He said he installed a wi-fi 6 mesh and it works with the latest iPhones

[d2d4j]

Hi

Many thanks @john

iphone 11 pro onwards can use ax (2x2) and it is on the new iphone 14 pro which I understand can use ax (4x4)

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/deployment/dep268652e6c/web

Here is a fairly good read re mu-mimo

https://www.networkcomputing.com/wireless-infrastructure/how-does-mu-mimo-work

We use Draytek as we like them (our opinion) and the AP used were AP1060C, which are fully capable of 4x4 and 160MHz

https://www.draytek.com/products/vigorap-1060c/#overview

Many thanks

John

[Weaver]

I found some data sheets on the Aruba networks’ site and it appears that the radio in the top end 655 model (if I have the product numbers right) is rather better than the one in the 635. The latter has 2x2 MIMO and no MU-MIMO, whereas the 655 has I think MU-MIMO and 4x4 capability. Presumably you will only get the benefit of the latter if you have stations that can also speak something fully compatible with 4x4 capabilities, and to get benefit from MU-MIMO do you need a high density of stations? So multiple stations talking to the same AP at once?

I don’t really want to spend the money on the 655, would prefer to buy the 635, but I’m wondering if this would be penny pinching and an opportunity missed.With the money saved, I can buy Alex’s preferred ZyXEL PoE switch.