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Author Topic: Interleaving automatically set ?  (Read 1790 times)

timdf911

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Interleaving automatically set ?
« on: July 28, 2022, 08:11:24 PM »

Hi,

Hoping someone can shed some light on a VDSL2 line instability problem.

I've recently moved house and ISP provider. The new ISP provider (Vodafone) gave me a VOX3.0 and it works fine, no drops and good speed, despite us being a long way from the FTTC box and using VDSL2 with vectoring.

However I prefer to use my trusty Draytel 2860n and while it connects fine and produces the same sync speeds for the same SNR, vectoring etc it has a tendency to drop out and re-sync every few hours whereas the VOX3.0 will go for weeks with no problems.

The only obvious difference I can see is that the VOX3.0 is using interleaving 8 from power up  day one whereas the Draytek is using interleaving 1, ie no interleaving and thus more prone to errors and drops - at least as I understand it.

Am I off in the weeds here or is there anything I can do to improve the reliability of the 2860n ? Will the DLM eventually turn on interleaving if it keeps dropping ? If so why does the VOX3.0 have it on from power up all the time ?

FYI I'm running the latest 3.9.1_BT firmware with vectoring and the other end is Openreach.

I've been in touch with Draytek technical support and they say my line doesn't support interleaving - but I beg to differ based on the VOX3.0 status page.

Here's a snap shot of the VDSL status when running the Draytek just after power up, it ran for aboiut an hour beofre dropping and having to re-sync:

  ---------------------- ATU-R Info (hw: annex A, f/w: annex A/B/C) -----------
   Running Mode            :      17A       State                : SHOWTIME
   DS Actual Rate          : 30000000 bps   US Actual Rate       :  6342000 bps
   DS Attainable Rate      : 33723876 bps   US Attainable Rate   :  6342000 bps
   DS Path Mode            :        Fast    US Path Mode         :        Fast
   DS Interleave Depth     :        1       US Interleave Depth  :        1
   NE Current Attenuation  :       28 dB    Cur SNR Margin       :        8  dB
   DS actual PSD           :     7. 0 dB    US actual PSD        :    10. 9  dB
   NE CRC Count            :       22       FE CRC Count         :    32523
   NE ES Count             :        4       FE  ES Count         :    23362
   Xdsl Reset Times        :        0       Xdsl Link  Times     :        1
   ITU Version[0]          : fe004452       ITU Version[1]       : 41590000
   VDSL Firmware Version   : 05-07-06-0D-01-07   [with Vectoring support]
   Power Management Mode   : DSL_G997_PMS_L0
   Test Mode               : DISABLE
  -------------------------------- ATU-C Info ---------------------------------
   Far Current Attenuation :       33 dB    Far SNR Margin       :        6  dB
   CO ITU Version[0]       : b5004244       CO ITU Version[1]    : 434da4a1
   DSLAM CHIPSET VENDOR    : < BDCM >

Any ideas ?  Currently using the VOX3.0 as a dumb modem to feed the Draytek.

Regards Tim
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Chrysalis

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Re: Interleaving automatically set ?
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2022, 09:59:00 PM »

Can you please post the stats from the VOX, even if they less detailed.
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g3uiss

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Re: Interleaving automatically set ?
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2022, 10:02:25 PM »

Not heard any line not supporting interleave! Not actually clear what the issue is ?
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Weaver

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Re: Interleaving automatically set ?
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2022, 10:59:34 PM »

Some modems in my experience just have a tendency to start if at the expected target SNRM and then the line is such that SNR goes down and down until its reliability drops to nothing as error correction fails. This is either because the line conditions change cyclically or because the modem does not support monitored tones and as bitswap continues and some tones are marked as useless, assigned zero bitloading, they are then unavailable long term and over time the supply of non-zero loaded tones decreases until the modem’s SNR is such that it has to retrain. In a situation where one can increase the target SNRM, one may be able to work around this, but I would say that the modem is just junk. That’s very poor design. I had a Mediatek-based modem that had a tendency to do this sometimes, over a long period. Does anyone know if such a Draytek has monitored tones support? Anyway, modems generally just should never do this.

The reason that you’re not getting interleaving is that BT DLM thinks you don't need it, not enough errors to require it. I think you always require it but I don’t think interleave is at all relevant here. This is important: forget the interleave thing.

I would say get rid of the Draytek, as you have done, and use a Broadcom-based high-quality modem to match your DSLAM. Using the VOX as your modem is a good idea.

Make sense?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2022, 11:21:26 PM by Weaver »
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g3uiss

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Re: Interleaving automatically set ?
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2022, 08:21:54 AM »

Using the VOX with the Draytec as a router is a good plan. The. You can get all the benefits of the Draytec and have the more stable connection.
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tubaman

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Re: Interleaving automatically set ?
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2022, 08:31:53 AM »

I rather doubt you'll have vectoring running, especially as you are some distance from the cabinet.
Is there any mention in the stats about G.INP as that should be on by default on Huawei (BDCM chipset) cabinets now and I'm wondering if the Vodafone router is using G.INP and the Draytek isn't for some reason?
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Weaver

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Re: Interleaving automatically set ?
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2022, 09:11:59 AM »

I can’t understand why G.Vector is dependent on distance. I just imagined that if it’s supported / available then it’s used, as you’d be mad not to use it with the loss of the benefit of crosstalk cancellation so greatly increased noise and lowered sync rates.
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timdf911

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Re: Interleaving automatically set ?
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2022, 06:15:56 PM »

Here's my VOX3.0 DSL status - below these comments.

I'm kind of resigning myself to the hybrid solution ie Vox3.0 feeding the Draytek as this seems to be the most stable solution.
I'm just puzzled as to why a quality modem such as the 2860n should perform so poorly compared to the ISP modem.
The vox unit clearly says interleave depth 8 whereas the Draytek says 1  ie no interleaving.
Like weaver says and I agree it seems the DLM thinks interleaving is not required maybe because the Draytek is doing too good a job whereas the Vox gets interleaving set from the get go.

I'm loathed to go and buy a new modem (the 2860n is 9 years old) because it may perform no better than the Draytek anyway.

Guess I'm stuck with teh Vox until such time as we get FTTP.

Regards Tim


VOX3.0 VDSL2 line staus

DSL Mode
ITU-T G.993.2_Annex_B (VDSL2)
DSL Uptime
3 days, 1 hour, 44 minutes and 3 seconds
Line Coding
DMT
Status
Connected
Number of Cuts
1
Link Power State
L0
Line Quality
Downstream   Upstream
Current Rate   29999 kbps   7090 kbps
Maximum Rate   37872 kbps   7030 kbps
Signal-to-Noise Ratio   9.3 dB   6.1 dB
Attenuation   DS1 22.4 dB, DS2 65.3 dB, DS3 90.3 dB   US0 11.3 dB, US1 54.0 dB, US2 N/A
Power   11 dBm   7 dBm
CRC Errors in last 4424 minute(s)   464   600
K (number of bytes in DMT frame)   0   0
R (number of bytes in RS code word)   6   0
S (RS code word size in DMT frame)   0.0691   0.9317
D (interleaver depth)   8   1
Delay   0 ms   0 ms
Downstream   Upstream
Super Frames   0   27137943
Super Frame Errors   86   165
RS Words   2428737128   1139546850
RS Correctable Errors   50776687   0
RS Uncorrectable Errors   0   0
Downstream   Upstream
HEC Errors   0   0
OCD Errors   0   0
LCD Errors   0   0
Total Cells   2428165085   0
Data Cells   165345079   0
Bit Errors   0   0
Downstream   Upstream
Total ES   105   336
Total SES   17   21
Total UAS   5573   5573
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g3uiss

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Re: Interleaving automatically set ?
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2022, 06:48:21 PM »

I think the figure of depth of 8 is rogue !
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burakkucat

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Re: Interleaving automatically set ?
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2022, 06:54:46 PM »

Quote
Downstream   Upstream
Current Rate   29999 kbps   7090 kbps
Maximum Rate   37872 kbps   7030 kbps
Signal-to-Noise Ratio   9.3 dB   6.1 dB

Hmm . . . It looks as if the DS has been banded at 30 Mbps. Notice the current rate and the SNR margin. I suspect that there have been too many circuit retrains for the DLM's liking.
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Weaver

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Re: Interleaving automatically set ?
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2022, 09:23:33 PM »

There are lots of good modems about; Broadcom-based ones don’t cost a fortune; my ZyXEL VMG1312-B10A which is now old, can be had for £20 on ebay sometimes, although often it’s rather more. At one time people were asking £120-£150 for them on ebay; doesn’t mean any fools were paying that though. ;D

Kitz members will be happy to give recommendations if asked.

I definitely think it’s a good idea to buy a separate router and modem(s). I don’t like combo units that are wireless + firewall+ router + switch + modem all combined as I think it’s best to pick the best of each device type. And there’s more to it, with wireless from WAPs, which should be positioned in the best place for coverage, not where the line comes into the house. That’s where a DSL modem should be, right at the master socket to minimise house-internal wiring and thus interference/noise pickup from in-house electrical devices and mains. So a modem should be where it needs to be, but your switch should be somewhere convenient for you, and that could be anywhere, and the modem-to-router, router-to-switch and each of the switch-to-WAP links can be as long as you like, with no quality problems, provided you can manage to accommodate the cable runs that is.
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timdf911

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Re: Interleaving automatically set ?
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2022, 09:36:43 PM »

Thanks Weaver

my thoughs exactly.  I do have the modem right on the master socket and have disconnected all the phone line extension wiring as we don't use them anyway.  I then have a cable to my master Xyzel switch onto which hangs the DHCP server (Draytek 2860n)  then a mesh network running openwrt on a bunch of GL-inet meshnodes plus a SONOS whole house audio mesh network. 

I do have back up cables should the mesh play up but it's been very reliable - just my FTTC connection which is flakey, largely because we are semi rural and a long way from the cabinet.
Tony G3UISS knows where I live - has the penny dropped yet Tony who you're talking to ?

Anyway I'll look into an alternative modem and see what I can find.  edit I think I have my original BT HG612 somewhere I might try out

Many thanks to everyone for their help and guidance.

Regards Tim
« Last Edit: July 29, 2022, 09:38:49 PM by timdf911 »
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g3uiss

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Re: Interleaving automatically set ?
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2022, 10:21:15 PM »

Um. Penny dropped. I have a VMGxxxx B10 which can be used as a modem ( it’s a router) no longer needed as I’m FTTP. This will easily hold the connection on a longer line as they have a filter not found on other modems.

So you know how to get it loaned  :P

[Moderator edited to insert a lonely and left behind "M" between the "V" & "G".]
« Last Edit: July 30, 2022, 05:52:36 PM by burakkucat »
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Weaver

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Re: Interleaving automatically set ?
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2022, 12:06:57 AM »

Good kit there from g3uiss; very similar to my own ZyXELs which also have that same analog front end filter, badly needed as my lines are ultra-long at ~4.5 mi. My ZyXEL VMG 1312-B10As are modem-routers configured in modem-only mode. The -A is important as the similar-looking, later -B10D model is inferior because ZyXEL cheapened it by dropping the costly analog filter.

I suspect all DSL modems are perhaps becoming ever-worse performers on ultra-long ADSL lines, because the designers are only thinking about FTTC, maybe only testing on it even.
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j0hn

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Re: Interleaving automatically set ?
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2022, 12:29:02 AM »

Interleaving depth of 8/1 shows that G.INP is active.

The question isn't why is the Vodafone modem using interleaving, it's why isn't the Draytek using G.INP, as it should be.
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