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Author Topic: Domestic Smart Heating Systems  (Read 4758 times)

tiffy

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Domestic Smart Heating Systems
« on: July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 PM »

As a result of "parkdale's" post here,
https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,27077.msg454445.html#msg454445
and not wishing to hijack "spudgun's" original topic further have spent some time researching smart heating control systems.
Obviously, the current and likely ongoing high energy prices are a driving factor in this project.

The Honeywell Evohome system as suggested by "parkdale" certainly looks excellent but initial outlay would be substantial.

Looked at the Tado Smart home system which would be a slightly cheaper outlay for my oil fired system.
Gets mixed reviews (as per all products) with main reservations being:
Hub connectivity issues, to smart devices and the cloud.
Smart components battery life.
Having to pay a monthly/yearly subscription for some of the more advanced system features.

Now considering the Drayton Wiser smart home system:
Outlay would work out about half of the cost of the Honeywell, Tado systems for a comparable installation.
On the whole gets excellent reviews and praise for their UK based support.

There are lots of excellent reviews available on all of these systems, wondering if any other forum OP's have any personal experience of any of the systems (or others) in question?
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j0hn

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Re: Domestic Smart Heating Systems
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2022, 02:24:28 PM »

I did a DIY upgrade of my existing Honeywell thermostat to make it a smart thermostat.

https://notenoughtech.com/home-automation/nest-your-old-thermostat-under-5/

Cost about £6
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tiffy

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Re: Domestic Smart Heating Systems
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2022, 03:59:26 PM »

@j0hn:
Yes, interesting little project and very cost effective.
I'am a big fan of node-RED and use it extensively all be it with Shelly rather than Sonoff devices on my RPi-3B+ MQTT broker.

However, with regard to CH/HW smart control, upgrading (or replacing) a simple room stat to "smart" will only offer remote access/control capabilities, from a temperature control aspect it still senses temperature at that point and starts/stops the complete system on that basis, all other areas will simply follow that temperature profile unless individual TRV's (thermostatic radiator valves) are fitted for each respective area or zone MOV's are fitted.

My oil fired CH/HW system is the very common "S Plan" system, ie., 2 control MOV's, CH & HW and a single hall stat, as such without extensive piping modification and adding additional MOV's I can never achieve zonal control, addition of smart TRV's and associated smart control components is by far the cheapest, least intrusive and most flexible method to achieve full zonal control.

Edit: Typo correction.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2022, 04:02:34 PM by tiffy »
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HPsauce

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Re: Domestic Smart Heating Systems
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2022, 07:14:21 PM »

I've had a Drayton Wiser system installed for a while now (maybe 3 years) though it is a VERY simple setup. Did it all myself.
It replaced an older Drayton Tempus 7 system which in turn replaced a mechanical clock system built in to our gas boiler.
Very simple to do, though IIRC I did need a new mounting plate as the older Drayton version was subtly incompatible on physical mounting, the wiring was exactly the same.

We only have one (wireless) thermostat, usually now in the lounge, replacing a wired Honeywell wall thermostat in the hall. Much better location.  :thumbs:
So it controls/schedules hot water (old-school gas boiler with gravity/convection circuit) and central heating (pumped of course).
There is a thermostat on the hot water tank but that's been there for ages and the Wiser isn't aware of it, it's effectively part of the boiler hot water controls.
No radiator thermostats or any other extras.

The manual says very clearly it's NOT suitable for such old "gravity" systems, that's hogwash. I even asked Wiser directly and got the same answer.
The Tempus 7 system had a jumper that you set to ensure the water was always switched on when the heating came on, the Wiser has no such option.
So I just programmed it to ensure that the central heating time periods were always within a hot water time period.

In fact I've subsequently found than when you override "out of hours" and turn on the heating the boiler fires up anyway, even though according to the manual it shouldn't. So that's fine.  :cool:

Things I like:
Remote access when away.
Mobile/wireless room thermostat.
Easy programming via App on iPhone/iPad.

Things I don't like:
Dependency on the manufacturer to keep running their internet service and your registration account.
Only App access, no web browser interface.
All the clever extras in the software, they seem to be rather too clever in many cases, certainly for us. And I'm a retired IT guy, man and boy!
« Last Edit: July 03, 2022, 07:20:19 PM by HPsauce »
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tiffy

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Re: Domestic Smart Heating Systems
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2022, 09:30:59 PM »

@HPsauce:
Many thanks for taking the time to provide such a detailed review of your system, much appreciated.

I have incorporated a Mitsubishi Alpha-2 PLC into my simple "S Plan" system to try to compensate for lack of proper zone control, a bit of over kill I know but was good fun to program and is very easy to monitor or change, has worked well for close to 4 years and has saved some running costs.
However, it's becoming old technology now and can never provide proper zone control without additional hardware.
By just replacing the existing programmer I will be able to retain the PLC interface to the existing control system but with view to removal when happy with the new smart system.

I will very likely go for the Drayton Wiser system, Amazon packaged kits appear to be the most cost effective option, hanging on for the 12th/13th July Amazon sale days in case of possible offers.

My existing TRV's are mostly Danfoss RAV 26mm units which I believe work with the supplied plastic adapters, however, noted that there are more robust metal adapters available by a third party at quite a modest cost should these be necessary.
I have a few Myson TRV's also, not sure if they will need adapters.

I like the use of the separate "ZigBee" mesh system for hub, inter-device communication with a separate Wi-Fi system for hub, router/cloud comm's with the option to install additional "smart plugs" which also act as boosters for any possible bad coverage areas.

Yes, as someone who uses desktop PC's on a daily basis would also have liked a PC interface, something that is available on the Tado system.
Believe the Google Nest Hub, which I use, can be configured to interface with some of the system controls.

Wonder what's your experience on TRV's battery life, lots of different opinions on this available?
 
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HPsauce

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Re: Domestic Smart Heating Systems
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2022, 09:51:41 PM »

I don't have any TRVs so can't comment on battery life.
Our central heating circuit is a weird extended hybrid of single-pipe and dual-pipe systems and TRVs would probably mess it up totally so I daren't fit any.

I did once set up Google Home and it had a vaguely useful interface to the Wiser, though not as complete as the Apps. Gave up on it fairly quickly as it didn't do anything else useful. So I expect their other products may well communicate to some extent.

And yes I bought mine on Amazon when there was a "deal".  :cool:
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parkdale

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Re: Domestic Smart Heating Systems
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2022, 03:03:35 PM »

My TRV battery's (2x AA) last about 12-15 months.. I think it could depend how many set points are being used per day. But you can use rechargeable Ni-cads or Li-ion instead (change battery type setting on TRV!).
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tiffy

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Re: Domestic Smart Heating Systems
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2022, 08:29:05 PM »

@parkdale:
Many thanks for the interest and information.

If I can obtain that sort of TRV battery life with the proposed Drayton Wiser valves I'll be more than happy, accepting that your TRV's are Honeywell Evohome so not a direct comparison.

Yes, as you say, the frequency and amount of TVR movement would be a big factor regarding battery life which would be very hard to predict, I have no idea if the valves adopt a fully proportional control profile which would effect the valve modulation characteristics, probably more likely to have a stepped profile with a pre-defined dead band.

Ni-cad batteries apparently will work but give an issue with condition reporting due to their lower (1.2v) cell voltage.
Li-ion batteries are better but due to their very rapid decay characteristics at end of cycle again cause condition reporting issues, ie., very little or no impending end of cycle life warning.

Edit: Typo correction
« Last Edit: July 04, 2022, 08:31:14 PM by tiffy »
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kitz

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Re: Domestic Smart Heating Systems
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2022, 09:53:24 AM »

I have Hive heating.  They can usually be obtained with substantial reduction on Prime day/Black Friday.   afaik the device is compatible with most boilers.  Can be fitted DIY or British Gas install.

I'm extremely happy with my system (Heating & Hot Water & Hive Hub & Thermostat) which was substantially reduced during Black Friday event Nov 2017 and cost j~£150 including installation by British Gas.  I was starting from scrath so needed a Hive Hub, but now the Hub also controls my lighting too.


Bearing in mind Prime day is next week it may be worthwhile checking out how much its reduced by.  I deliberately wanted a system without annual costs or fees and was compatible with Alexa voice commands.  Further reductions if you can fit it yourself and already have a Hive hub.   

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B011B3J6F4/ref=pe_3187911_185740111_TE_item?th=1

Info about the various system and thermostats.
https://www.hivehome.com/guides/hive-heating
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tiffy

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Re: Domestic Smart Heating Systems
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2022, 04:42:41 PM »

@kitz:
Many thanks for the information, hope you are well?

Quote
Bearing in mind Prime day is next week it may be worthwhile checking out how much its reduced by.
Yes, I'am waiting for the Prime event next week before ordering anything, hoping for offers :fingers:

My main consideration and driver towards a smart system is to try and segregate (zone) the CH areas so won't be over/under heating the less used areas in our 4 BR bungalow with 2 occupants.
Do have standard (dumb) TRV's on all radiators but local temperature control is always a compromise and of course has to be manually trimmed.

Quote
I deliberately wanted a system without annual costs or fees and was compatible with Alexa voice commands.
Had initially considered the Tado system but they charge a monthly/yearly fee for some of their features.
The Drayton Wiser system I'am currently considering is fully compatable with Alexa & Google as are most of the others.

My current CH/HW system with the Mitsubishi Alpha-2 PLC is very configurable but not true zonal, being completely my own design, fabrication and programming it's non standard, as such, the wife's worried that I will "pop my cloggs" and leave her with a system that no one else can maintain or repair, probably fair comment :(
Another good reason to change to a more "standard" system.   
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kitz

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Re: Domestic Smart Heating Systems
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2022, 04:58:37 AM »


My main consideration and driver towards a smart system is to try and segregate (zone) the CH areas so won't be over/under heating the less used areas in our 4 BR bungalow with 2 occupants.
Do have standard (dumb) TRV's on all radiators but local temperature control is always a compromise and of course has to be manually trimmed.

The Hive Smart TRVs are linked to the Hive Hub.  You can control each TRV independently or create zones with different time schedules and temp.  I cant personally comment on their performance as atm I only have standard TVRs on my radiators. I have the portable thermostat stand and I occasionally move it between lounge & study. However, I do have zones and scheduling for my lights, which work extremely well so I have no reason to doubt setting up heating zones. 

Actually I will be checking the prices of TRV's myself next week for a new rad that will be installed in the back room when completed.  Im finding stairs more difficult, but I'm not sure whats going on with my internal thermostat.  At first I thought Alexa was lying and giving me duff temperature saying my house was 23 degrees, yet there I was with 2 jumpers & a fleece hoody throw visibly shivering.  I'm dreading winter.... when I cant get warm in summer, the sun can be shining and a lovely warm day,but there's me with goosebumps, wrapped in a throw & shivering :/   



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tiffy

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Re: Domestic Smart Heating Systems
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2022, 10:25:19 AM »

Quote
Yes, I'am waiting for the Prime event next week before ordering anything, hoping for offers :fingers:

The wait paid off, reductions on the Drayton Wiser kit on the Amazon Prime sale today.
After ordering kit early hours annoyed to find there were further reductions this morning >:(
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kitz

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Re: Domestic Smart Heating Systems
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2022, 08:15:53 AM »

At least you made some savings.  It is annoying when they do that. However, it can be risky waiting though, quite often I've seen some of the Smart goods or popular brands run out of stock quite soon.  I've missed deals more than once by hesitating.

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aesmith

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Re: Domestic Smart Heating Systems
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2022, 04:57:49 PM »

The Hive Smart TRVs are linked to the Hive Hub. 
Do you happen to know if the TRVs interlink with the boiler, ie boiler and pump only come on if at least one TRV is calling for heat?  When I looked a few years ago there were lots of systems missing that bit, so you still had to have your boiler/pump on a timer or something.

We're looking for something with individual radiator controls, due to the house layout it would mean a lot of the time we'd only heat half of the area.
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tiffy

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Re: Domestic Smart Heating Systems
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2022, 08:15:51 PM »

Quote
Do you happen to know if the TRVs interlink with the boiler, ie boiler and pump only come on if at least one TRV is calling for heat?

Can only comment on the Drayton Wiser system where any CH demand from room stat or radiator stat via the hub acts exactly as per non-smart system where programmer demand + room stat demand will activate the boiler & circ pump.
There would be no point in generating heat demand from either room or radiator stat's if it could not start the heat/circulation source, ie., boiler & pump.

Would imagine this would be the basic operating principle of any smart system.
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