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Author Topic: Openreach / Broadband Woes  (Read 4387 times)

Weaver

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Re: Openreach / Broadband Woes
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2022, 08:27:46 PM »

what he said: https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,27063.msg453985.html#msg453985

Seriously though, Plusnet seems not to be doing their job in one sense, because they aren’t reviewing, managing this and guiding you properly. It’s up to your ISP to fix this or else tell you what you’re asking isn’t reasonable and why. If they can’t do this, change to a better ISP.

I’m thinking that if this were me I’d order a new line, or even two new lines and then bin the first one. The two new lines could then be set up in a full true bonding arrangement for double speed and full reliability despite one going down. Throwing money at it, as I’m serious.
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tubaman

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Re: Openreach / Broadband Woes
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2022, 08:35:59 AM »

...
Seriously though, Plusnet seems not to be doing their job in one sense, because they aren’t reviewing, managing this and guiding you properly. It’s up to your ISP to fix this or else tell you what you’re asking isn’t reasonable and why. If they can’t do this, change to a better ISP.

I’m thinking that if this were me I’d order a new line, or even two new lines and then bin the first one. The two new lines could then be set up in a full true bonding arrangement for double speed and full reliability despite one going down. Throwing money at it, as I’m serious.

Plusnet continually throwing routers at this is pretty poor. They clearly don't understand what the issue actually is.
If it is a REIN, or more likely SHINE, issue then a new line would be no guarantee of a fix as it'd likely be in the same cable bundle as the current one and would suffer from the same issue. As @Black Sheep has said, Openreach are under no obligation to fix it and will only attempt to do so if they have spare capacity.
I'd also be very frustrated if I was suffering from this issue, but other than taking careful notes of exactly when the issues happen and trying to tie that to events I'm not sure what can be done.
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Edinburgh_lad

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Re: Openreach / Broadband Woes
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2022, 12:32:56 AM »

Thanks for all your responses/advice - much appreciated.

For a company whose revenue increased to £2.7 billion in 2021, I find it shocking that there's only one (I repeat: one) REIN engineer in the Lothians.

Although your recommendations were made in good faith to switch to A&A or other ISPs in order to move things forward, this implies that Openreach need to be 'pushed'/'prodded' by specialist companies like A&A in order to address issues. Which shouldn't be the case and isn't right.

Anyway, it's not about one or two disconnections, or some errors on the line, as @BlackSheep says. Today, between 12pm-5pm, I had 7 resyncs, with SNR dropping to -1dB and then 1dB at one point (now at 9dB). (There are too many errors to chase, by the way.)

Last weekend, I had 9 resyncs, resulting in the SNR going up to 15dB as a result, reducing the speed below the minimum guaranteed (the higher frequency carrier had also temporarily disappeared). This has been the pattern (more less) for the past 17 months. So, @BlackSheep, do I still give the impression that OR don't give a flying about my circuit?

Totally understand not much can be done here apart from taking notes of when these events take place (it now seems to be weekends, but previously were also during the week). I'm only trying to establish if my problems are due to capacity issues at the line card, cross-talk at the card, underground cable being broken or something, or REIN as in an electrical device causing interference. 







 



« Last Edit: June 18, 2022, 12:43:46 AM by Edinburgh_lad »
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Openreach / Broadband Woes
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2022, 04:15:07 AM »

What you need to remember is despite the government constantly planning to classify broadband as an essential utility, there is no obligation for the telcos/ISPs to treat it as one.  Its not like electricity, gas or water where they HAVE to make sure it works or face penalties.  If they are unable to deliver a fit for purpose service, the only obligation they have is to let you end your contract early.

At present, you'd have to pay for business broadband to get any kind of Service Level Agreement, where you are basically paying a premium for a priority solving your problems or paying compensation for them.  Residential broadband is specifically sold at the price it is on the basis of it being a "best effort" service.  ISPs may be offering more guarantees these days, but its not the kind of compensation that would cover business losses.

It used to be that doing any business activity on a residential service was frowned upon, I believe they would refuse to sell it if your address is registered as a business.  Of course this is complicated if you work from home so they have no way to know what you're using it for.
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g3uiss

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Re: Openreach / Broadband Woes
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2022, 10:11:42 AM »

Maybe the OP might get more support by not slagging OR in virtually every post. The comments by @Alex and also in my post 29 are very relevant. If it’s that business critical get a second service to provide failover.

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tubaman

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Re: Openreach / Broadband Woes
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2022, 11:09:48 AM »

From the stats you've shown us I'd say you can rule out capacity or cross-talk issues, and a physical line fault is highly unlikely too. It does bear all the hallmarks of electrical interference, but as you know that is not easy to trace, especially when it is somewhat random in its appearance.
Even if you could get a specialist engineer out what are the chances of the problem occurring whist they are on site?
I know it's far from ideal but are you able to perhaps use a 4G or 5G mobile service instead, fully appreciating that they are rarely perfect either?
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Edinburgh_lad

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Re: Openreach / Broadband Woes
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2022, 09:38:31 PM »

Hello everyone

Thank you all for the good advice, but also for the critical comments. It's a great forum and I've learnt a lot from everyone, and I'm very grateful for everyone's input (though I still think I'm entitled to criticise Openreach as much as I want, even though some on here work for them, yet are not in official capacity on here).

So, my 20th Openreach came today: I was graced by the patch lead himself and a REIN engineer. They've identified an old piece of equipment along the road that was the source of my and, for that matter, everyone else's problems. Really chuffed about that.

Still no apology from the patch lead for the 17 months of not taking ownership (NB: no, I'm not demanding an apology for the REIN issue, as it's not their fault that it was there), but at least he knows now how not having this properly investigated has impacted us.

If anyone wants advice on how to deal with Openreach, please pm me. Hopefully my experience will benefit someone else in the future.


« Last Edit: June 25, 2022, 12:35:15 AM by Edinburgh_lad »
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burakkucat

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Re: Openreach / Broadband Woes
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2022, 10:46:51 PM »

I am pleased to know that you now have a solution to the problem and your woes should be no more.  :)

They've identified an old piece of equipment along the road that was the source of my and, for that matter, everyone else's problems.

That is very interesting. Did they disclose as to what was that "old piece of equipment"?
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Edinburgh_lad

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Re: Openreach / Broadband Woes
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2022, 12:18:46 AM »

Yes. An old Sonos speaker, more specifically its power adapter. So, surprisingly, not some kind of cheap stuff.
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Openreach / Broadband Woes
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2022, 06:57:19 AM »

Its quite astonishing something so small can cause such extreme RFI.  You'd think it would have been an old TV or streetlight.

Considering the amount of cheap chinese PSUs, its a wonder this isn't a more widespread problem - or perhaps it is and not enough people realise?

At least it should go away over time as fibre rolls out, then it will just mess with WiFi.   In fact, I'm tempted to think this is why my WiFi sometimes can do Gigabit and other days only does half.  No other WiFi is using the same channel so its either a different device on 5Ghz or something emitting RFI.
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Edinburgh_lad

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Re: Openreach / Broadband Woes
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2022, 08:33:27 AM »

Yep, though he said it was quite common, though I don't know whether he meant with Sonos or speakers. It was also astonishing how regularised people's lives are: you get up, put something on at the socket, even though you don't necessarily want to use it. So, every time it was switched on and off at the socket, my internet would drop. Every time it was on, there'd be noise and depending on how much bandwidth we would use, there would be drops, too. Plus, they only said it was at a place along the road (but didn't specify the direction), so if I think where it is, there's a pole by that property (literary a couple of feet), which would mean that lots would have been affected. Crazy.

I think it is a widespread problem and people just don't realise it, especially in places where there are older residents who are used to using something and have no desire to upgrade to the latest technology, unless the thing breaks. Very few will even know how to check stats on your router, and will use the connection for light browsing and email only. I myself didn't know much about electrical noise until I started reading about it.

Also, how do you speak to your neighbours that you'd want them to check their appliances: a) they don't know how; and b) you imply that it's their appliances that are the issue. I suspect, this Sonos speaker would go undetected if I hadn't pressed for another Openreach visit and was determined not to give up, despite being told on here that I'm moaning about a few errors. Thankfully, according to the REIN engineer, it was easy to find the source of this noise in this area as it was on at the time and no flats around.

Another issue was convincing Plusnet and Openreach that it was indeed an external source that caused our problems. I'm used to looking at data and spotting patterns to realise certain things. However, Plusnet will side with what Openreach will say (obviously, as it's their network and their specialist engineers), so it took a while to convince Plusnet to keep the job open, as they'd test the line in the evenings, when I would usually phone, and the answer would be that *at this moment in time* there were no issues. It was only when that wonderful engineer stated it was a brick wall job and that the issue would be affecting others, too, that things changed - so, I'll be eternally grateful to him for that. Then Openreach are confident that it's not their network, so they focussed on 'customer premises' a lot (my master socket was changed five times in the end! The last two being done by the REIN engineer, as he was getting FEC errors at the socket, but not on the line. My g.fast plate fitted by another engineer just two weeks ago is now gone and I now again have Openreach's standard VDSL socket), which I knew wasn't the cause of our issues because we had tested everything on multiple occasions. Finally, if you don't get a dedicated rep from your ISP that will look after your case, not all that pick up the job will look over months of notes - on at least two occasions I had to phone them to stop being sent yet another router because they just order them without even asking if you want another one. Absolutely crazy.

You should check, Alex, the times you observe this reduction in speed, if you can be bothered, as one of our problems was the 2.4GHz network was unusable, despite me using a different channel and not many routers being around. I initially thought it was Draytek's
cheap components, as my 2830 and 2762 were both affected (on both ADSL and VDSL), but then when I noticed that with my Fritzbox too, I realised it was an external source.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2022, 11:06:50 AM by Edinburgh_lad »
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craigski

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Re: Openreach / Broadband Woes
« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2022, 11:19:00 AM »

I'm intrigued by this. A consumer power adapter in someone else's property along the road was generating RF that had an electrical path to your line? I don't understand how this would be possible unless there was also fault with cabling.
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gt94sss2

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Re: Openreach / Broadband Woes
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2022, 05:19:31 PM »

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g3uiss

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Re: Openreach / Broadband Woes
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2022, 06:08:55 PM »

A TV 405 line line output transformer is likely to cause a great deal more interference than a switching power supply not on the premises!

The line output circuits were very low tech and designed when RFI wasn’t a problem, besides being dangerous !

I too find it hard to reconcile the interference generated by this PSU causing so much havoc.

Still appears it’s solved the OP’s issues.
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RealAleMadrid

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Re: Openreach / Broadband Woes
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2022, 07:05:37 PM »

@craigski Radio Frequency Interference does not need an electrical path. The interference is picked up by nearby phone lines which transfer it everywhere in the area. :(
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