Kitz ADSL Broadband Information
adsl spacer  
Support this site
Home Broadband ISPs Tech Routers Wiki Forum
 
     
   Compare ISP   Rate your ISP
   Glossary   Glossary
 
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Author Topic: Openreach FTTP and PPPoE  (Read 3270 times)

NEXUS2345

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 235
Openreach FTTP and PPPoE
« on: April 28, 2022, 05:43:40 PM »

I'm just wondering if anyone is aware of ISPs on the Openreach FTTP network that do not make use of PPPoE for authentication to their networks. PPPoE does introduce some overhead and I was curious if any ISPs were making an effort to remove this from their networks to potentially reduce complexity and/or increase speeds for end users.
Logged
Security improvement and remediation consultant with infrastructure specialisation

IDNet Openreach FTTP 1000/115 + Asus RT-AX92U | Virgin Media 200 + SuperHub 3 + Synology MR2200ac mesh | Sky 80/20 with WiFi Guarantee on Huawei 288 cabinet

craigski

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 115
Re: Openreach FTTP and PPPoE
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2022, 07:11:11 PM »

The PPPoE 'overhead' is negligible, maybe 1%, I doubt you would notice it.
Logged

j0hn

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 3863
Re: Openreach FTTP and PPPoE
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2022, 07:20:09 PM »

Only Talktalk residential and Sky (including Sky's sibling Now Broadband) do not use PPPoE over Openreach FTTC/P.

Providers have pretty much no option to ditch PPP.
The 2 main backhaul carriers, BT Wholesale & Talktalk Business, give no other option to authenticate customers.

The only reason Talktalk and Sky can do it is they run their own backhaul.
Even Talktalk Business customers use PPPoE.

The overhead in bytes on PPPoE is tiny. 8 bytes per 1500 MTU.
The processing overhead on routers is negligible on modern hardware. On older hardware it was an issue at Ultrafast speeds but even gigabit speeds over PPP shouldn't give a modern router any issues at all.

tl;dr PPPoE isn't the issue is used to be. It's almost impossible to avoid over Openreach.
Logged
Talktalk FTTP 550/75 - Speedtest - BQM

Alex Atkin UK

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 3788
    • Thinkbroadband Quality Monitors
Re: Openreach FTTP and PPPoE
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2022, 09:10:26 PM »

The processing overhead on routers is negligible on modern hardware. On older hardware it was an issue at Ultrafast speeds but even gigabit speeds over PPP shouldn't give a modern router any issues at all.

Unless you have the abysmal single-threaded FreeBSD PPP implementation or an older router. :(
Logged
INTAKE (ECI) Home Hub 5A (OpenWRT) on Zen, 2xHauwei CPE Pro 2 H122-373 (VOXI 4G,Three 5G) Router: pfSense (i5-7200U) WiFi: Zyxel NWA210AX + Ubiquiti nanoHD (OpenWRT)
My Broadband History & Ping Quality Monitors

Chrysalis

  • Content Team
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 6845
Re: Openreach FTTP and PPPoE
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2022, 07:12:38 PM »

What do you mean by modern hardware J0hn?

I suppose if you discount 3rd party opensource solutions it might be negligible, but I have seen reports where a CPU can handle 6 gbit/sec without PPPoE, and collapses to under 600mbit/sec (tenth of speed) with PPPoE, and the CPU isnt some obsolete 10 year old atom CPU.

I think one of the issues is as Alex said with getting it to multithread in opensource drivers, not sure if there is anything else on top of that as the cause?

Does talk talk residential over cityfibre use PPPoE?
Logged
AAISP - Billion 8800NL bridge & PFSense BOX running PFSense 2.4 - ECI Cab - LINE STATISTICS CLICK HERE

Alex Atkin UK

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 3788
    • Thinkbroadband Quality Monitors
Re: Openreach FTTP and PPPoE
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2022, 08:21:47 PM »

OpenWRT and other Linux based router OS are multi-threaded I believe, but not sure if they have PPP hardware offloading support so on a router designed for that could possibly still bottleneck?

In fact, I've seen PPP hardware offload mentioned a few times when discussing this but never seen a single example of a router that actually supports it.  Generally its NAT offloading which is discussed, and that's useless if you want to do policy routing.  Granted, most people will not.
Logged
INTAKE (ECI) Home Hub 5A (OpenWRT) on Zen, 2xHauwei CPE Pro 2 H122-373 (VOXI 4G,Three 5G) Router: pfSense (i5-7200U) WiFi: Zyxel NWA210AX + Ubiquiti nanoHD (OpenWRT)
My Broadband History & Ping Quality Monitors

Derpy

  • Just arrived
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Openreach FTTP and PPPoE
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2022, 12:59:04 AM »

In fact, I've seen PPP hardware offload mentioned a few times when discussing this but never seen a single example of a router that actually supports it.
My EdgeRouter has it I believe although I dont use the function right now.
Logged

AnthonyG

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 26
Re: Openreach FTTP and PPPoE
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2022, 07:23:25 PM »

I am with TalkTalk FTTP and this works via DHCP and it is truly amazing. I have an old J1900 with PFsense on and CPU usage is only ~5%.

It is curious that Amazon released their Eero routers which don't support PPPOE and only work via DHCP authentication if only TalkTalk are the only FTTP provider which offers internet via this?

Did Amazon misstep or do they know something we don't?
Logged

gt94sss2

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1196
Re: Openreach FTTP and PPPoE
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2022, 07:47:41 PM »

It is curious that Amazon released their Eero routers which don't support PPPOE and only work via DHCP authentication if only TalkTalk are the only FTTP provider which offers internet via this?

Did Amazon misstep or do they know something we don't?

Almost certainly designed with the US market in mind
Logged

Alex Atkin UK

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 3788
    • Thinkbroadband Quality Monitors
Re: Openreach FTTP and PPPoE
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2022, 07:51:39 PM »

Did Amazon misstep or do they know something we don't?

Even if they knew most ISPs were dropping PPP by the end of the year, its a huge misstep to not support it today.

This certainly isn't going to happen any time soon though as its already been mentioned that currently PPP is the only way for most ISPs to direct traffic over BT Wholesale.

Amazon mostly target the US I suspect where on DSL you typically CAN'T use your own hardware, but might have some form of bridge mode which exposes your IP over DHCP,  cable where its always DHCP via a modem/bridge mode, or using your own router is not supported at all.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2022, 11:37:02 PM by Alex Atkin UK »
Logged
INTAKE (ECI) Home Hub 5A (OpenWRT) on Zen, 2xHauwei CPE Pro 2 H122-373 (VOXI 4G,Three 5G) Router: pfSense (i5-7200U) WiFi: Zyxel NWA210AX + Ubiquiti nanoHD (OpenWRT)
My Broadband History & Ping Quality Monitors

burakkucat

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 35788
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: Openreach FTTP and PPPoE
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2022, 09:52:10 PM »

. . . its already been mentioned that currently PPP is the only way for most ISPs to direct traffic over Openreach.

I suspect you meant BT Wholesale not Openreach.  :-\
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

Alex Atkin UK

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 3788
    • Thinkbroadband Quality Monitors
Re: Openreach FTTP and PPPoE
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2022, 11:34:39 PM »

I suspect you meant BT Wholesale not Openreach.  :-\

Indeed.  Thinking too much about Openreach.

Its the backhaul that is the deal here, right?  ie Sky and TalkTalk have their own so have a mechanism to do plain ethernet?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2022, 11:37:37 PM by Alex Atkin UK »
Logged
INTAKE (ECI) Home Hub 5A (OpenWRT) on Zen, 2xHauwei CPE Pro 2 H122-373 (VOXI 4G,Three 5G) Router: pfSense (i5-7200U) WiFi: Zyxel NWA210AX + Ubiquiti nanoHD (OpenWRT)
My Broadband History & Ping Quality Monitors

burakkucat

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 35788
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: Openreach FTTP and PPPoE
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2022, 11:41:57 PM »

Its the backhaul that is the deal here, right?  ie Sky and TalkTalk have their own so have a mechanism to do plain ethernet?

Yes, correct, it's the backhaul.
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

craigski

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 115
Re: Openreach FTTP and PPPoE
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2022, 09:00:14 AM »

Logged

j0hn

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 3863
Re: Openreach FTTP and PPPoE
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2022, 10:38:42 AM »

It is curious that Amazon released their Eero routers which don't support PPPOE and only work via DHCP authentication if only TalkTalk are the only FTTP provider which offers internet via this?

They have since added PPP support after disastrous reviews and return rates on the UK Amazon site.
Logged
Talktalk FTTP 550/75 - Speedtest - BQM