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Author Topic: 10Gbps FTTP  (Read 8028 times)

Alex Atkin UK

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Re: 10Gbps FTTP
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2022, 04:19:30 PM »

Its funny as I've been "helping" someone over on Linus Tech Tips forum try to understand why his 5Gbit FTTP is being provided on a router with only 1x2.5Gbit and 2xGigabit ethernet ports, and why its really not worth his time trying to combine them.

I'm lucky to get 5Gbit between my NAS and desktop PC (which are connected at 10Gbit) because even between NVMe SSDs there seems to be bottlenecks on SMB and NFS.
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Weaver

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Re: 10Gbps FTTP
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2022, 05:48:22 PM »

What are those SSDs, 6Gbps ? can’t remember.
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j0hn

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Re: 10Gbps FTTP
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2022, 05:58:44 PM »

It depends what drives you buy.
My oldest NVME drive (Samsung SM951) "only" does 2,200MB/s read and 1,600MB/s write sequential.
Real world is much slower.

Some NVME drive are much slower than that, others are much faster. It depends if it's PCIE Gen 3 or 4, and how many lanes. It depends on how good the controller on the drive is.
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HPsauce

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Re: 10Gbps FTTP
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2022, 08:13:49 PM »

Real world is much slower.
I inherited a small oldish Dell notebook/laptop recently without it's "hard drive" an (NVMe) SSD.
I bought the cheapest I could, a WD Blue SN550, which said it could achieve 2400MB/s.
Real world is at best 1500 read, 750 write, which is way more than I actually need - it's used for car diagnostics.

But I think we may be digressing rather too far from the original topic.....  :-[
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: 10Gbps FTTP
« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2022, 10:01:48 PM »

For heavy writes I've actually found SATA SSDs are better in my NAS.

Once SATA bottlenecks it doesn't hang system IO the same way NVMe does, I think because at 550MB/s the NAND keeps a constant flow of data whereas on NVMe it will burst at ungodly speeds to fill the DRAM cache and SLC cache, then IO hangs completely as the NVMe controller tries to move stuff into the MLC part of the NAND at double-digit speeds.

The end result is the NVMe probably completes faster but the computer is unusable during that time vs SATA where it continues to be responsive.  Unless of course you have really REALLY high end NVMe drives where the cache is bigger than anything you're likely to write.

Found this out when extracting large rar/7z archives to the OS NVMe drive.  Even when both the archives and extraction is to the same SATA SSD, it just works better than using the NVMe drive.  Keep NVMe for small random reads where it excels.

Moving files over the network will never saturate either in my experience as you're adding more IO and network transfers are CPU heavy.  Ironically I had to disable the NIC functions that reduce CPU load as they actually made things worse, especially on Windows clients.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2022, 10:13:02 PM by Alex Atkin UK »
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HPsauce

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Re: 10Gbps FTTP
« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2022, 10:24:02 PM »

Interesting, my SATA SSD systems tend to run at a symmetric (roughly) 500MB/s read and write (some really old ones are slower) but in the "real world" they're all about the same speed doing any task and that includes the NVMe ones.
Don't think I've got any rotary magnetic disks any more except for backups. Repurposing saves waste.  :cool:
Ah, no, I do have one system on "traditional" hard disks. It's full of family photos and videos from about 1989 on.... Slaved to our biggest TV for nostalgia sessions.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2022, 10:29:07 PM by HPsauce »
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: 10Gbps FTTP
« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2022, 10:30:17 PM »

Interesting, my SATA SSD systems tend to run at a symmetric (roughly) 500MB/s read and write (some really old ones are slower) but in the "real world" they're all about the same speed doing any task and that includes the NVMe ones.

Are you sure you mean NVMe and not M.2, as M.2 drives can be NVMe (PCIe) or SATA.  No NVMe drive should be stuck at 500MB/s and they drop significantly lower once the cache is full.  I have a fair selection of drives, most of my NVMe are fairly low end except my gaming PC which has a high-end Sabrent Rocket 4 Plus which is stupidly fast.

I hope Weaver doesn't mind that we've gone a little off-topic, though its relevant as one of the key factors in high-end FTTP not performing as expected is disk IO.   This is another thing that comes up on the LTT forums quite regularly, people with Gigabit or faster but their CPU  and/or SSD is too slow to keep up.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2022, 10:32:28 PM by Alex Atkin UK »
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HPsauce

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Re: 10Gbps FTTP
« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2022, 10:35:17 PM »

Quite sure, I've only got one NVMe system. Which is also M.2 and benchmarks quite fast.
The rest are just SATA replacements of magnetic hard drives. Typically Crucial BX500 range units.

I'm quite sure my systems are bottlenecked on CPU and/or RAM speed now.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2022, 10:40:17 PM by HPsauce »
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Re: 10Gbps FTTP
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2022, 07:38:54 AM »

Off-peak will drop once more people sign up as it's selling the full capacity of the PON however I don't expect significant drops.

I don't expect it to drop below 8, or go much above 9.

The main machine it'll connect to is a beast that should be more than able to handle the load.

Weaver

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Re: 10Gbps FTTP
« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2022, 08:23:07 AM »

@Alex no you’re fine - topic police have not been called ;) And in fact wasn’t I myself a contributor to ‘drift’?

If users’ CPUs, o/s’s and internal i/o hardware are not up to 10Gbps then will users even know? Average users perhaps don’t benchmark such things do they? Do some machines now have rubbish CPUs given the huge popularity of laptops and their low-power consumption requirements or thermal limitations. I would never have a laptop if it didn’t have to be portable - I hate them; sluggish performance, small pokey screens and awful abnormal keyboards. I will always want a huge PC with massive CPU oomph, proper keyboard and one or two giant monitors.

It could be that a significant use-case for 10Gbps will be multiple users though, I wonder.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2022, 08:39:34 AM by Weaver »
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j0hn

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Re: 10Gbps FTTP
« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2022, 01:09:18 PM »

If users’ CPUs, o/s’s and internal i/o hardware are not up to 10Gbps then will users even know?

ThinkBroadband is full of posts from users complaining they can't even max out the 900Mb/s package from their provider.

It almost always turns out to be their own hardware. Either a slow CPU, a rubbish NIC, or anti virus/security software showing their machine down.

Anyone who buys 10Gb/s FTTP would be doing so to spread that connection over multiple machines.
Either that or they need 1 hell of a system with drives setup in some form of RAID to get anywhere near that kind of throughput.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2022, 06:46:11 PM by j0hn »
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Re: 10Gbps FTTP
« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2022, 06:27:25 PM »

Some M.2 drives can handle 1.2 GB/s write. The 980 Pro in my primary machine can do over 5 GB/s in bursts and sustain 1.7 GB/s.

It's packing an Intel chipset NIC, so that should take most of the load off the CPU, and the CPU itself is Ryzen 59xx series.

Will see what it can do.

Alex Atkin UK

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Re: 10Gbps FTTP
« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2022, 08:39:17 PM »

The 980 Pro and the Sabrent Rocket 4 Plus I have in my gaming PC are supposed to be fairly comparable.  I can pull content form the NAS at 522MB/s to that machine no problem (from the SATA SSD, so basically maxing out), its sending to the NAS which tends to be the issue.

Copying from the Sabrent to the Intel 660p (high-end to low-end NVMe SSD) in that PC can do 2.1GB/s for a 3GB file but copying to the NAS with the P1 (which is basically the same SSD just different brand) bursts to 2Gbit or so then drops down to barely above Gigabit, though I just double checked and this seems to apply across all drives in the NAS so appears to be a different issue to what I was originally discussing (bottlenecking on copies entirely on the NAS itself).

This is doubly weird as the NAS has 25GiB of RAM assigned to cache right now so it "should" be able to just dump it into RAM at full speed then write it out to permanent storage in the background.  Reading back that file does 560MB/s as its probably coming from that RAM cache so happily maxing out the 5Gbit link back to the main switch.

Its not the end of the world, its just rather odd and highlights how networking can be such a minefield of issues.  Its never as simple as plug and play, very much the old MEME of plug & pray.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2022, 08:43:28 PM by Alex Atkin UK »
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Weaver

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Re: 10Gbps FTTP
« Reply #58 on: February 12, 2022, 09:43:15 PM »

The last main workstation PC I had was a Dell with a 2 x SATA RAID SSD set up using a card that had a processor and lots of RAM on it.

I agree about the use-case for multiple PCs.
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Re: 10Gbps FTTP
« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2022, 05:25:00 AM »

Every cabled device at home is connected directly to a switch with a 10G uplink so hopefully minimal bottlenecking.

I do have some work to do to improve it, though. Have the hardware ready to go so no rush.
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