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Author Topic: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2  (Read 6233 times)

g3uiss

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #75 on: August 11, 2021, 06:21:10 PM »

Latest from Zen. Taken me out of contract as unable to help further with fault.  :no:
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kitz

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #76 on: August 12, 2021, 08:28:53 AM »

Not sure what to suggest now, bearing in mind your last response from Clive Selly.   

It's annoying in that we know what the problem is, and know what its potential could be on another line card.  It's sad that Zen have taken the easy way out.   AAISP is about the only ISP I can think of now who might fight your corner... but even if you move to them they wont have the advantage of the other line and being able to compare and see the difference :(

btw.. just in case it wasnt clear about my musings about the PSD masks... was I wondered if for some reason those particular line cards were allocated a different set of masks that were available.  Being that DSM selects masks from a range based upon your distance it would explain why it only affecs the longer lines.  It's the mask that affects PCB and available bit load.  If your line was shorter it would in all probability have a totally different mask and possibly not be as restrictive at certain tones.   I said much earlier in this post that Openreach seem reluctant to change line cards so I doubt they would swap out the whole line card if its only affecting one (longer) line. Openreach have always paid less important on the upstream and never seem to make any guarantees about the upstream speed performance.

It's so damn annoying for you to know what it could perform better on one of the other line cards. 
Few consumers have 2 lines on the DSLAM to compare with and the since the 0xd086 line card performance only affects the longer lines very, very few people would be in your situation.  We all know what the solution would be, but if there are no free ports on the other line cards then its difficult.     In an ideal world Openreach would swap places with a shorter line but I cant ever see them doing that :(    I think about your best chance of getting anything done is trying Clive Selly again.

Do you know how along you are with FTTP?   Things seemed to move really quickly here once they'd started.   
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g3uiss

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #77 on: August 12, 2021, 09:44:00 AM »

Thanks @kitz. All agreed my options are to do nothing and manage, or swap back to ADSL2 on that line. The FTTP is now live in some parts, one of my colleagues has it working about 3 miles from me. Apparently mine is one of the last PON,s to be done, although they have done the” walking” survey about a week ago, so it’s moving. The main Rd at the end had had activity, with ropes etc, but nothing down the sides near me yet.

Frustrating as you say, but also there isn’t much incentive for anyone to do anything about it. One point one of the last engineers mentioned it wasn’t a OR issue and needed BT not sure if that’s right and if so would Clive Sellys team have any interest ?

I think I was unlucky with the person that picked up my first approach and really didn’t want to get involved

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g3uiss

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #78 on: August 12, 2021, 12:38:38 PM »

Out of the Blue call from customer services manager at Zen. Not sure what prompted this, maybe they review all accounts taken out of contract. Very helpful and certainly more interested in getting a resolution. Left them to escalate but as @kitz mentions they will have to work hard to get resolution. I assume from what @j0hn has said they are aware of this card issue ? :-\
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j0hn

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #79 on: August 12, 2021, 02:48:19 PM »

I've absolutely no idea if they would be aware of it.

We don't even know if it's 2 different hardware revisions of line cards (we know they use/used 2 different kinds) or if it's just the firmware loaded to the card.

The "bad" firmware seems to work perfectly normal on shorter lines.
Ixel had 2 short circuits, 1 connected to each line card firmware, and both worked fine.
It's on longer lines that the upstream seems to completely collapse.

It would not surprise me if OpenReach weren't aware of the upstream issue with these cards on longer lines.

Unfortunately the engineers who work inside the DSLAM's almost never interact with customers.
That means you can't even find out if the cards are different.

The engineer who comes to see the customer only touches the tie cables in the PCP that then link to the DSLAM.

Nice to see Zen giving it another go anyway.
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Chrysalis

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #80 on: August 12, 2021, 03:48:34 PM »

Do we know 100% it is the firmware causing it, his signal seems slightly weaker on the problem line and can see on the downstream tones immediately before the upstream that it is not just the upstream affected.

Openreach may not even consider this firmware a problem, so from their perspective why change a working line card?  The quality assurance is low due to all the cost pressures so they not going to be switching out kit for what they see as very minor problems, kitz even said herself they dont really care about the upstream much. 

Contacting the CEO seems the only hope at this point, as its this type of thing where they can authorise work to be carried out, the CEO has a lot more clout than any ISP would.
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g3uiss

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #81 on: August 12, 2021, 04:23:34 PM »

@chrys yes I think your right. However FTTP is coming making the chance of involving additional costs even more unlikely. I have been down the CEO route but the agent assigned just constantly referred me back to Zen. I guess trying again might get another agent.

Somewhere here I saw a rough timetable on FTTP rollouts. I’ve had the manual survey not sure what the timeframe is after that.  :(
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j0hn

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #82 on: August 12, 2021, 04:29:10 PM »

Do we know 100% it is the firmware causing it, his signal seems slightly weaker on the problem line and can see on the downstream tones immediately before the upstream that it is not just the upstream affected.

Yes. It's the line card version or the firmware it runs on. It's known to cause very low upstream on longer lines.

There's a couple other threads where the users upstream has crashed after the DSLAM firmware changing to the 086 version.

https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,18140.msg329379.html#msg329379
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g3uiss

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #83 on: August 12, 2021, 04:35:10 PM »

The link was interesting! I posted on that thread but long gone out of my mind  :no:

One wonders how many end users actually have this issue.
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kitz

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #84 on: August 12, 2021, 11:53:01 PM »

@g3uiss

I made a reply earlier to your post at 9:44 but had to go out.  My lift turned up a little earlier than expected and although I'd finished the post, in my rush to get out I'd not hit the post button so it never sent.  I'll post it now but I see there have been other replies since which I will deal with in turn asand when I read through them.


The FTTC DSLAM is Openreach's domain, so not quite sure why BT was mentioned for vdsl.   
BTw is responsible for adsl MSANs in the exchange for any BTw based ISPs, but when it comes to FTTC anything between the L2Switch at the OLT to the SSFP in the home belongs to Openreach.


Not necessarily unlucky.   I doubt that most engineers would be aware of the different line cards or firmware. Most engineers don't actually know much about actual DSL technology.   They don't really need to as they just deal with the copper.   Knowledge of DSL knowledge helps when it comes to fault finding that isn't so much visible like an oxidised joint or damaged cable is.   They have tools such as the JDSU which interprets all the DSL stats for them and gives them the pointers where the problem lies.  Some of the topics we talk about here on the forum is beyond what your average engineer Openreach knows.   I'm not saying this in a derogatory manner, it's just a fact that first and foremost they are telephony engineers.  I've had broadband fault engineers who didnt know what SNR or CRC/FECs are.

TBH if you hadn't got the other line to compare with then it would be a case of nothing you can do and the line just is too long enough to be able to load any bits at the higher frequencies used by the U1 tones.   I haven't come across a case before where a cab has the 2 different line cards in them.   

We've known for a several years that there are 2 different line cards but it's a slightly newer observation that the 0xd086 cards don't perform so well on longer lines.   Yours is the first case I have seen where we are able to directly see how much of a difference side by side for 2 lines which in theory should be the same length and on the same PSD profile.   I've seen several cases where lines don't perform well in the U1 range and their upstream bit load is so poor that its worse than adsl and I myself have written it off as unable to do anything because the line is just incapable of loading many bits in the U1 band. 

Seeing your stats and looking at both of them side by side has made me strongly suspect that the 0xd086 card is selecting a much harsher mak and higher PCB for longer lines.  It's made me wonder just how of those lines I've seen in the past could perhaps do better if they were using a different PSD mask that perhaps could be available to them.   Why those line cards select a harsher mask I don't know, but it will probably be something to do with crosstalk.  Whether they generate more NeXT or have a harder time with FeXT I don't know.   I've no proof, but all my gut instincts are screaming at me those 2 lines are on different PSD profiles. I bet that coffee and carrot cake that I'm right.
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kitz

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #85 on: August 13, 2021, 12:42:15 AM »

Do we know 100% it is the firmware causing it,

See my post July 14th here.
There's 2 different line cards which have different chipsets.   The newer one of them is 'vectoring ready' and compatible with both the ECI M41 and V41 DsLAMs.  Bearing that in mind I would think they have different f/w.

Quote
his signal seems slightly weaker on the problem line and can see on the downstream tones immediately before the upstream that it is not just the upstream affected.

See my post Aug 4th here

Although I admitted at the time that my post was more of a ramble because I couldn't see how it could help g3uiss, but I thought it was important enough to be relevant and worth mentioning.   I'll eat my hat if the 2nd line is not on a different PSD profile.  Its highly likely that its the mask and its PCB that is causing the line to look 'weaker'.   
         
  • Different mask > Increased PCB > lower power output > less SNR > less bit load.

I spent a wee bit of time looking & comparing the 2 line stats. I explained what I was looking for in the other post, but I will attach the 2 bit loads side by side.   Even naked eye and some one used to looking at line stat graphs should recognise the nice even stepping and the dipped area at around tone 500 and which then goes back up again is indicative of spectral shaping.  Tone ~500 is an important marker point for spectral shaping as its where adsl(2+) frequencies ends.

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kitz

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #86 on: August 13, 2021, 02:03:31 AM »

Yes. It's the line card version or the firmware it runs on. It's known to cause very low upstream on longer lines.

There's a couple other threads where the users upstream has crashed after the DSLAM firmware changing to the 086 version.

https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,18140.msg329379.html#msg329379

Thanks for the linky,  I was reading it and then started following up on the backlinks.  My memory is like a sieve these days and I ended up on search-a-thon which was a nice refresher:(

This one is quite interesting which is the supposed reason for the f/w update

Code: [Select]
Ethernet OAM 802.3ah Loopback: Timer not getting updated when the same timer value is
set again.
Silent Stuck Ports
VTUC v3 fails to accept profiles following upgrade
V3 Config and software load on first install issues
Power Status reporting in 15-min DLM file
EOPs GUI – Margin & Attenuation information missing from Broadcom modems on long
lines
The number of profiles shows wrong number in dropdown at “select DSL VOP profiles” page
V21 failures when sending parallel profile to multiple ports on same ECI DSLAM
Time Errors in PM Data
PM Data Missing
Increased Upstream FEC Count
 


Quote
VTUC v3 fails to accept profiles following upgrade

VTUC are the line cards. v3 are the ones containing the Lantiq Vinax V3 chipset.

Quote
The number of profiles shows wrong number in dropdown at “select DSL VOP profiles” page

VOP profiles are Vector of Profiles - Which according to TR-165 specifications includes:
Line Sprectum Profile
PSD Profile
UPBO Profile
xDSL Channel configuration
xDSL Line Spectrum Profile
xDSL Line Service Profile


I've got the feeling I'm missing a hidden link somewhere.    Unfort I'm really tired and in pain so my brain cant cope with anything more tonight Ls. do anything else tonight.  I'll have a look tomorrow.
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g3uiss

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #87 on: August 13, 2021, 12:07:36 PM »

@kitz thanks for all that interesting information. Your understanding is quite remarkable ! Yet another engineer is booked for Wednesday, I can’t really see the point, but I’m not sure if an ISP can do anything more. As everyone points out, these engineers don’t have access to the likely card and hence report no fault found.
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NEXUS2345

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #88 on: August 13, 2021, 01:21:27 PM »

Yes. It's the line card version or the firmware it runs on. It's known to cause very low upstream on longer lines.

There's a couple other threads where the users upstream has crashed after the DSLAM firmware changing to the 086 version.

https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,18140.msg329379.html#msg329379

Sorry to hijack a thread somewhat but I believe this may have affected me as well. Back in September/October of 2020 my upload speed on a Zen 80/20 FTTC circuit completely collapsed to less than 1-2Mbps from the full 20Mbps I was obtaining before. After multiple tickets with Zen we ended up simply leaving Zen and moving to Virgin Media who offered us an FTTP (RFoG) connection and higher speed for a lower price. The DSLAM in use was in a Huawei 288 cabinet and was a recent install as part of BDUK, line length I'd estimate at less than 800m. It's unfortunate that I can't test this as we don't have the line anymore but I find it interesting that someone else has experienced a similar issue.

I should note we had this issue twice, with one time turning out to be a faulty modem causing problems. The first time we also had an Openreach engineer attend who did a pair swap at the jointing box and replaced our NTE5 with a new NTE5C with filtered faceplate.
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Chrysalis

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #89 on: August 13, 2021, 01:33:14 PM »

Yes. It's the line card version or the firmware it runs on. It's known to cause very low upstream on longer lines.

There's a couple other threads where the users upstream has crashed after the DSLAM firmware changing to the 086 version.

https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,18140.msg329379.html#msg329379

Given kitz explanation of the mask been used been different, I do accept it is the likely cause, just not necessarily 100% chance.  A different mask could cause the weaker output on those tones.  Although from openreach point of view I expect they dont see this as something that would put a card into needs replacing category hence me agreeing with kitz as well to go down the CEO route.
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