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Author Topic: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2  (Read 5395 times)

g3uiss

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #60 on: July 28, 2021, 11:08:48 PM »

Ive actually done that, but they just referred me back to Zen. Next is an email to Zens CEO. Itís appalling really, just imagine what how a less experienced EU might be left. Just paying for poor service and information.
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Chrysalis

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #61 on: July 30, 2021, 02:15:52 AM »

Zen I expect are growing rapidly, and with that comes a larger tech support team which I expect has a consequence of been less skill focused.

I dont know what I would do in your shoes, all it does is remind me that I wish EU's could deal with openreach directly.
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g3uiss

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #62 on: July 30, 2021, 08:56:26 AM »

Yes I couldnít agree more. I feel in the communication between Zen and OR the lack of technical knowledge leads to confusion. Yesterday I asked Zen to suggest a way forward, another advisor suggested another OR visit ! Now booked for next week. If that fails Iím going to leave as is. Itís a second service and I can route all services needing upload capability via the good line.
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g3uiss

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #63 on: August 03, 2021, 04:03:35 PM »

Great OR engineer today. Confirmed issue is with line card, but there are no spare ports on other cards so nothing can be done. I assume they wont replace a card due inconvenience and cost.

At least a definitive answer

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Black Sheep

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #64 on: August 03, 2021, 06:31:47 PM »

Great OR engineer today. Confirmed issue is with line card, but there are no spare ports on other cards so nothing can be done. I assume they wont replace a card due inconvenience and cost.

At least a definitive answer

If the card is faulty - it will get replaced.

As with all things though, a priority will be placed upon it. An analogy, may be to compare it to D-Poles that are found to have decay/rot - like DSLAM cards, there are thousands out there - so a priority system is placed upon them.
Is it a PIDOC (Pole In Danger Of Collapse), is it a customer awaiting installation, is a customer out of service awaiting for it to be changed to regain service, is it a high fault volume node, is it part of an FTTP programme .....

Same with cards - if most of the card is performing within the cone of acceptance - it would quite rightly take a lower priority to a card that sees all customers without service.
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g3uiss

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #65 on: August 03, 2021, 10:24:15 PM »

The engineer suggested that I would get FTTP before the card was replaced!

Itís not I think within the cone of acceptance, but not really sure as it only affects uploads. Which are 50% of minimum projections on the dsl checker.
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kitz

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #66 on: August 04, 2021, 12:13:06 AM »

@BS.   I think in this particular case it is not so much that the line card is faulty, but it of a different model than some of the others.    It uses different f/w and as far as OR seem to be concerned they work well enough - except they give a poor upstream. 

The topic has been done many times over the years that OR don't seem too concerned about under performance with upstream speeds.  TBH most people wouldnt have noticed nor known but g3uiss is in a situation where he has 2 lines to be able to compare with and able to point and say "look this is what it should be acheiving".    I hate to sound pessimistic  and I agree that its unfair, but OR dont seem to be in any hurry at replacing the 0xd086 line cards that are in service :(
About the only thing I can think is that if g3uiss now takes this further up the ladder himself.   Ideally Zen should attempt to push it first.

@g3uiss  I started a post the other day about something I'd observed on your bit load which I never got to finish, it was more of a ramble rather than anything that use as ammunition and I couldn't think how you may use the info to your advantage.
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g3uiss

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #67 on: August 04, 2021, 08:50:23 AM »

Thanks @bs and @kitz. Unfortunately I donít think Zen have a understanding or desire to push further and FTTP is coming. They have offered to revert me back to ADSL2 which will improve the US by 25% for little loss of DS or I can route my US over the other circuit.

However the reason I have two circuits is to get a acceptable performance, given Iím at the end of a 1000m aluminium wire.

I think the key is the fact that this card works in most situations and as @j0hn has pointed out itís over longer lines it fails.

I think itís a dead end for now :no:

[Moderator edited: FTTC -> FTTP]
« Last Edit: August 04, 2021, 05:12:12 PM by burakkucat »
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kitz

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #68 on: August 04, 2021, 10:00:29 AM »

>> as @j0hn has pointed out itís over longer lines it fails

This may tie in with the post I started to make the other day that I started, but didn't know how to conclude.  As I still have it in notepad I'll post the unfinished item warts and all.



Its difficult to say with absolute certainty, but the new vdsl line looks to have a different PSD mask. 
The clue is how bit load slightly increases after tone 500 (end of adsl frequency range). 

In theory. as they are on the same DSLAM and have the same attenuation both lines should have the same spectral mask.   Each DSLAM is given a specific set of masks to use which are based upon the cab's distance to the exchange.  The DSM (Dynamic Spectral Management system) then allocates one of these masks based upon the the line's distance between home and the cab & performance.

DSM analyses the line during the sync up phase, one of the key parameters is attenuation but it can take other factors into account such as crosstalk or a poorly performing line in an attempt to boost SNR at various tones. Whilst there are many different masks available, they narrow down considerably based upon the DSLAM location.
After a considerable period of looking at many stats, the naked eye can tend to spot patterns from the plotted bit load graph to be able to tell the difference between long & short D sides and also if the cab is close or far from the exchange. 


As I say, naked eye is no exact science - you'd need something like a JDSU to analyise each individual tone - its just something that you can spot and get a feel for when you see bit load patterns at certain tones. It's not something I could put in writing, but the main tone shapes I look out for are: any U0 bitload, patterns in the D1 bandset based at tone 250, 500 and the general shape of the U1 bandset due to PCB.



I started to say something about the even stepping and 6 bits....  but I've forgotten now where I was going with that without reopening the graphs and looking again.

The reason it ties in with j0hn's comment is that it's almost like it's selected a psd mask that reduces your available bit load in the U1 region.   Bearing in mind that because its a long line DSM will allocate you a different mask than shorter lines.  The long and short of what I'm trying to say is that its possibly the PSD Mask and PCB that is causing the reduced upstream.   The more I looked at your 2 lines, the more convinced I became that you had been allocated a different PSD Mask.
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g3uiss

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #69 on: August 04, 2021, 12:52:26 PM »

@kitz. I understand your train of thought. However as you said in an earlier post, what I could do with this is very limited! It seems to me the expertise of the field engineers doesnít go this far, more todo with the physical pathway which is fine on every test.  Can that ďmaskĒ be associated with that card version I wonder.

Bottom line I think there is little I can do. I did approach Clive Sellyís team but they politely referred me back to Zen. I didnít want to do this as the engineers had been helpful, but felt they might probe further. Zen simply say itís the max the line is capable of.

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Black Sheep

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #70 on: August 04, 2021, 01:19:54 PM »

It seems to me the expertise of the field engineers doesnít go this far, more todo with the physical pathway which is fine on every test.  Can that ďmaskĒ be associated with that card version I wonder.



That basically is it in a nutshell.

We are responsible for the metallic path facility and its capabilities. If a card is faulty, or running a different f/w (thanks kitz for educating me on that one), then the OR engineers influence is minimal to non-existant. 

We can simply liaise with the relevant helpdesk and hope to have a LLUMS case raised. From that point forth, we have no sight or feedback of its progression - it may very well be due to have a new card replaced today, conversely ... it might be penciled in for the 12th of never ??

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g3uiss

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #71 on: August 04, 2021, 01:39:23 PM »

Thanks @bs. So my understanding was correct. So as a end user there is no way forward for any potential resolution?
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j0hn

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #72 on: August 04, 2021, 02:28:59 PM »

Personally I'd be surprised if the card ever got replaced.

They have pretty much stopped increasing capacity of full FTTC cabinets.
The focus is all on FTTP.

Waiting lists are so high due to full FTTC cabinets that OpenReach have suspended the waiting list system.

OpenReach are telling both customers and providers that capacity will become available on cabinets as and when local FTTP deployments come around to take pressure off the cabinet.

https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/notspot/t/4689745-no-fttc-available-but-neighbour-has-it.html

That all makes sense to me. There's little point adding new DSLAM's/pods to increase capacity if FTTP is expected within a few years.

The line card firmware causing the low upload speed had been around for years now.
As discussed it only seems to affect the upstream on very long lines, so I don't see them replacing those either.
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g3uiss

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #73 on: August 04, 2021, 05:03:06 PM »

Thanks @j0hn. Iím lucky FTTP is being rolled out in my town and the walking survey just done on our road.
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Chrysalis

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Re: ADSL2+ Upgraded to VDSL2
« Reply #74 on: August 05, 2021, 05:47:26 PM »

Personally I'd be surprised if the card ever got replaced.

They have pretty much stopped increasing capacity of full FTTC cabinets.
The focus is all on FTTP.

Waiting lists are so high due to full FTTC cabinets that OpenReach have suspended the waiting list system.

OpenReach are telling both customers and providers that capacity will become available on cabinets as and when local FTTP deployments come around to take pressure off the cabinet.

https://forums.thinkbroadband.com/notspot/t/4689745-no-fttc-available-but-neighbour-has-it.html

That all makes sense to me. There's little point adding new DSLAM's/pods to increase capacity if FTTP is expected within a few years.

The line card firmware causing the low upload speed had been around for years now.
As discussed it only seems to affect the upstream on very long lines, so I don't see them replacing those either.

How does that work for areas where openreach FTTP isnt planned though or is several years away?

I do understand that FTTP is where the focus should be, but it is a gamble on openreach's part to leave some areas in limbo for potentially years to come.
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