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[Chrysalis]

I have been reading up on care levels, focused appointments, and other things offered by openreach.

I do think openreach have quality problems, but we should not forget that we as consumers are not aware of many things that go on between openreach and the ISPs, in particular we may not be aware that different types of engineer callouts exist and there is different service levels.

I was surprised to read e.g. how cheap the level 4 service is, the annual price for that to me seems extraordinary value, but the vast majority of consumer isps apparently pick either care level one or two unsurprisingly but this is not declared to the customer as if its some kind of irrelevant part of the product spec.

I am wondering what people's thoughts are on this, so as an example.

Should isp's offer a choice on ordering, if not should they at the very least have to declare what service level the customer gets in their package?

I expect this not only has  an impact on fix times but also missed appointments. (the reason I looked into this).  If an engineer has a level 2 and level 1 job but only one slot left, I expect the level 1 gets bumped, even if it was an earlier called in job.

Some info here, note you can even do it on demand to boost a fault fix time.

https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/services/product-services/service-maintenance-levels
https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/serviceproducts/serviceharmonisation/serviceharmonisation/downloads/SML_fact_sheet_web_vers_phme_61163_2011_09.pdf

[g3uiss]

Zen offer 1 or 2 from memory. I have one line on each. My experience is the engineer doesn’t know what comes next until he clears the job, so can’t actually help in providing the service or even plan a route for the day. I’ve had a few missed appointments over the years, but I’ve found on more than one occasion it was the ISP !

[Chrysalis]

Zen offer 1 or 2 from memory. I have one line on each. My experience is the engineer doesn’t know what comes next until he clears the job, so can’t actually help in providing the service or even plan a route for the day. I’ve had a few missed appointments over the years, but I’ve found on more than one occasion it was the ISP !

That maybe, but I expect there will be someone managing that engineer.

[g3uiss]

Yes of course, but I think the software is called Job Manager

[Black Sheep]

Yes of course, but I think the software is called Job Manager

'Work Manager' - been around years - personally, I don't think it works as well as the business expected it to, when they input vast sums of money into its implementation.

On paper it works, but reality has a habit of chucking in swerve balls.

It is a very powerful bit of kit though, that calculates many, many algorithms and lines up the next available job for each engineer based upon appointment slots and skill-sets.

You can imagine how quickly the day can go to rat-**** though, when Johnny rings in sick and so the days work the machine had allocated to him (3-4 tasks as an average) now have to be re-worked elsewhere. Then, Jack gets a mammoth first task that sees him extend his task-time to the end of the day, ergo his allocated tasks have to be re-worked. Then Jimmy needs an 'Assist' for a road-crossing or any other safety issues that we can face.... that's more jobs left that need re-working in the system.

On a staff of 45 engineers you can multiply each scenario above by at least 2/3 times easily. Then, comes the CL (Care Level) tasks .... Mr Business has a CL1 fault and a manual controller will ring round to get somebody to do it as we have to react instantly ....more jobs to get re-worked in the WM system,  depending on the severity of the job ? I'm sure you can build your own picture by now.

In the early years, it was common for an engineer on one patch to travel 20-30 miles to another patch because the appointment slot and skill-set fit the engineer - and then a different same skilled engineer from the other patch would, (you've guessed it), picked up a task 10 minutes later and is now travelling 20-30miles  to the opposite patch - both engineers passing each other as they went.

It took a while, but the parameters were tweaked to rule that out from happening. But I still bang the drum for the manual controller situation - you can't beat a guy who knows the engineers, their capabilities in different scenario's, their skills (some are stronger in some than others), and their locality.

The last two words are gold-dust - you get to know your own area, weak Cab E-sides, poor D-side cable lengths, local hoodlums (believe me - it helps to know the runts), roads to avoid at certain times, local Exchange engineers you can ring to bob a tone on ...... local knowledge is paramount as it saves a lot of wasted time fault-finding if you're not from the area !!

Well, rant over and I feel better for it. OR are always trialliing new systems/Apps etc to get the best out of their workforce and to help them ... and a lot of them are genuinely brilliant .... just not Work Manager. 

[g3uiss]

That’s an interesting but sounds a frustrating situation. I don’t think the intelligence can ever be as good as a human as @bs comments. The on the ground knowledge of such diverse issues must be invaluable. That said and I have commented before the whole thing is difficult to understand the logistics so vast and complicated. There always to me seems a great difference in skills and knowledge between engineers presumably down to experience and training.

[4candles]

Ah, those were the days BS - ringing out the finals in the GSC. 

When I had a patch of rural exchanges, the local linesman would often tip me off about possible exchange problems before they became an issue.

[licquorice]

Ah, ringing out finals, I wonder how many here know what that is.

[burakkucat]

Ah, ringing out finals, I wonder how many here know what that is.

Not I. But I can guess . . . knowing the purpose of a Group Switching Centre.

[Black Sheep]

I have to admit - it's not a term I've heard of before ??

Intiguing 

[licquorice]

Ok.

Back in the distant days of Strowger exchanges, the last 2 digits of a subscriber's (not customer in those days) number was achieved by stepping a Final Selector to the vertical level of the penultimate digit and  horizontal level of the ultimate digit. The Final Selector then applied ringing current to line to operate the subscriber's bell. Occasionally, a subscriber would report that their phone was not always ringing and that they were missing incoming calls. This lack of ringing could be attributed to a faulty Final Selector. Therefore to identify the culprit, the exchange TO would plug his Tele 280 (commonly known as a Butt) into each Final Selector in turn and dial the last 2 digits whilst the lineman checked for ringing at the subscriber's premises. This practice was known as 'Ringing out the Finals'.

[Black Sheep]

Ok.

Back in the distant days of Strowger exchanges, the last 2 digits of a subscriber's (not customer in those days) number was achieved by stepping a Final Selector to the vertical level of the penultimate digit and  horizontal level of the ultimate digit. The Final Selector then applied ringing current to line to operate the subscriber's bell. Occasionally, a subscriber would report that their phone was not always ringing and that they were missing incoming calls. This lack of ringing could be attributed to a faulty Final Selector. Therefore to identify the culprit, the exchange TO would plug his Tele 280 (commonly known as a Butt) into each Final Selector in turn and dial the last 2 digits whilst the lineman checked for ringing at the subscriber's premises. This practice was known as 'Ringing out the Finals'.

Thank you for that - I never saw that technique in operation, that said .... when I joined I was on the Power staff, so although I enjoyed the heat and noise of a good old Strowger exchange  , I would normally be found in the 'Battery Room' descaling the massive open wet-cells.

When I did opt to join the outside engineering frat (some 5/6yrs later), it had all new-fangled with that bl00dy digital stuff. 

I've always said it though - the TO's back then earned their crust whenever a fault landed in their lap - those detached contact drawings were mahooooosive. I did a 3 week 'Lift course' in Stone (A very non-standard pass or fail course, as we all know, most courses you got a pass on even if you couldn't tie your own shoe-laces), and the elctro-mech drawings weren't a patch on the Exchange ones - albeit, still a head-spin. 

[licquorice]

Whilst doing my City and Guilds exams, I could actually draw a Final Selector diagram from memory!

[4candles]

@liquorice  That's impressive! 

I could remember the relays, and their function, but drawing it...   

@BS   I read TXE2 diagrams on the floor - too big for a table/bench.

[licquorice]

@liquorice 

@BS   I read TXE2 diagrams on the floor - too big for a table/bench.

We used to tape TXK1 diagrams to the wall, again too big for the table.