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[tiffy]

As the proud owner of a Toyota CH-R Hybrid for just on a year now, have become aware of a potential issue which may be of interest to some forum patrons who are Toyora Hybrid users, I believe there are a few.

While cleaning the car this week at home I inadvertantly left the "ignition" on, was cleaning the windows so needed the up/down electrics active.
For anyone unfamiliar with Toyota hybrids, pushing the power button once (without pressing the brake pedal) enables the radio which times out in approx 10 min's, pushing the power button twice (without pressing the brake pedal) powers up the 12 V. auxiliaries which won't time out.
Hands up, completely my fault, I forgot to switch off again, returned to the car in less than an hour and the 12 V. battery was completely flat.
Although the 12 V. battery does not actually crank the engine, it has to be healthy to enable the HV battery which does crank up the engine, so, car dead, won't start!

While surprised at the so rapid demise of the 12 V. battery I fully accept that I was at fault in this instance.
However, on visiting the Toyota help forum here:
https://mag.toyota.co.uk/coronavirus-toyota-hybrid-car-maintenance/comment-page-10/#comments
became aware that it's not such an uncommon occurance which has certainly become more pronounced with the current lock down situation and the very much lower vehicle usage in general.

Somewhat disappointingly, Toyota won't admit to any design issue, their suggested solution being to start the hybrid once a week for an hour if not in use where the petrol engine will charge the 12 V. battery via the HV battery.
Not really a very "green" solution for someone who has spent £30K plus on a hybrid!
Yes, a "smart" trickle charger, battery maintainer could be used, as I have no wish to disconnect the battery for charging with all the associated hassle, great care would have to be exercised in the choice of any charger applied without disconnection and any possible damage to the inverter/converter module, I'am sure Toyota would very quickly back out of any warrantly replacement if there was any hint of damage caused by an inappropriate charger.

Rather than go down the charger route, I have decided on this:
https://no.co/gb40
Ordered from Halfords, not yet arrived.
Probably a bit overkill for a hybrid, the GB-20 (500 Amp) would have sufficed as the 12 V. battery does not crank the engine, however, as it's only £20 dearer though it would be more versatile for any possible usage on conventional petrol/diesel vehicles.
Yes, an appropriate smart trickle charger would certainly maintain the 12 V. battery provided I took the trouble to connect it, however, would not be much use away from home or after the car was parked up for a week at the airport with the possibility of a flat battery!

Will review the Noco GB-40 Lithium Jump Starter unit when it arrives if anyone is interested.

[Iain]

Ewan and Charlie suffered the same problem on their long way up trip, on their electric bikes.

It's a bit like having to carry some kind of puncture repair in these days of no spare.

[banger]

I would be interested in a review of the GB40.

[tiffy]

I would be interested in a review of the GB40.

OK, not received the unit yet, it's quite a long delivery time from Halfords to local store, over a week and Halfords won't do home delivery to N.I.

There are quite a lot of very good reviews on line, mostly American as the unit is of US manufacture.
Will add my two penny worth when in receipt, probably not with a flat battery, it's more of an insurance policy after reading the many incident reviews on the Toyota forum.

Some of the American reviews tested the unit with the battery disconnected and the pack connected to the terminals!
Would have thought that would be totally taboo as the vehicle alternator would start to back feed a lot of current as soon as the engine started, definately not what the unit was designed for.
Funny enough, it appeared to have survived the exercise (mis use), not something I will be trying!

[vic0239]

Same happened to me during the first lockdown with my Auris Hybrid. AA chap came along with his rather large battery pack and connected it to the “special” terminal and chassis and hey presto the hybrid system sprang back into life. Not wishing to be caught out again I bought one of these - BUTURE Car Jump Starter, 800A Peak 12800mAh Portable Car Battery Starter. Have not had cause to use it since, but it has held its charge with no need to recharge since its purchase in August. The AA guy mentioned the same solution you got from Toyota which I have used. The engine stops after a short idle while the 12v battery continues to charge.

Coincidentally I swapped the Auris for the CH-R last September (Dynamic, 2L model in pearlescent white / black roof) after a thoroughly enjoyable test run in the Scottish Borders. Was fascinated when the sales guy replayed my journey on his laptop! Although with the second lockdown I have yet to reach 400 miles on the clock! Happy motoring.

[Alex Atkin UK]

Was fascinated when the sales guy replayed my journey on his laptop!

[jelv]

A lot of caravanners use something like this to keep their battery charged while the caravan is in store for a few months over winter. Would that do the job?

[banger]

I had a solar charger. It struggled. I now have a mains trickle charger which seems to work.

[Alex Atkin UK]

This all sounds like a horrible design to me.

[parkdale]

I have a 6 year old Toyota Auris Hybrid 1.8 and to date have not experienced a flat 12v battery. We do a lot of small journeys to the local shops, mostly under 6 miles, every couple of days.
So far so good. We also have a Toyota Aygo 1.0 which I used to go to work in, which is not really being used at all. Went to move it a couple of weeks ago, flat battery. So I bought one of these https://www.sealey.co.uk/product/5637701831/65a-9-cycle-612v-compact-auto-smart-charger to charge the battery (I do have a conventional charger but my brother borrowed it  ) After 3 days of charging, and car still not running, one of the cells must have gone.  I bought a new Battery from Toyota who delivered to my door and they took the old one away! still won't start. Out comes AA chap, cranks the engine, puts his jump start booster on still no go, so he cuts the drive belt, engine starts first time!, he then tries to turn over the alternator which is completely sized solid! Apparently he says this is the most common call out for Toyota Aygo's as the alternator near the bottom of the engine. So i'm now £500 poorer
My mother was worried the most as our Aygo is classed as the familiy spare...! 

[tiffy]

@parkdale:
My daughter has a 5 year old Toyoyta Aygo which she bought a year ago, she loves it, great economy and zero road tax.
After reading your saga regarding the alternator, as I just happen to be doing a deep spring clean today on said vehicle, I had a peek at the alternator location.
It's very near the top of the engine, could not be further away from the ground, at the front of the engine with a solid bulkhead in front?
I would say as protected as anything could be within the engine bay.
Perhaps a different engine option or Toyota have acknowledged & correct an earlier design flaw?

Regarding the Sealey smart charger.
I have a contact in the supply trade who is a Sealey agent and had contemplated buying their Lithium Battery Jumper Pack, he strongly advised against as he has had a very large number of returns and is no longer keen to supply.
Decided to go for the Noco GB40 in stead which is actually cheaper than the Sealey unit and receives very good reviews.
However, I'am sure your Smart Battery Charger will be fine, Sealey is normally a very reputable and well respected brand.

Good to hear you have not had any 12 V. battery issues with your Auris.
I will be carrying my Lithium battery jumper pack on board just in case!

[parkdale]

Our Aygo is 7 years old and the alternator is on the top still from video looking up> Both our cars have zero road tax
I will keep an eye on the Sealey unit, really only for occasional use. I suspect a lot of issues are related to usage by pressing the buttons like your life depended on it (my mother suffers from this)
Realistically both cars have been very reliable, with very few issues, a lot better than most of my previous ones.
My other half can't drive the Aygo any more (she bought it) having forgotten what the gear stick is for

Edit checked Alternator position

[tiffy]

This all sounds like a horrible design to me.

Is that the solar charger or the Toyota?
Some might argue both.

For me the solar charger is not a viable option, if I went to the trouble of trickle charging would use a mains, smart charger.
Yes, obviously don't have mains away from home, a solar panel of reasonable current capacity would be quite large and for best efficiency stuck on the roof where it could easily be stolen, all too much hassle.

The smart charger I was contemplating and may still buy at some stage is this model:
https://www.optimate.co.uk/products/optimate-4
It's (sort of) approved by Toyota and limits charging current to 1 amp as per their recommendations for safe connection to the 12 V. battery while still connected to the vehicle.
It also has a cell desulphation feature which claims can rejuvenate and possibly prolong battery life, there is a school of thought that Toyota hybrid 12 V. batteries have a short life span as they are not subject to periodic heavy discharge associated with engine cranking.
This activity can only be carried out with the battery disconnected and there is protection incorporated in the charger to detect in vehicle state and disable the desulphation & recovery process which could quite possibly damage the vehicle electronics.

Of course lots of other excellent smart chargers are available but seem to incorporate higher charging current rates which I believe is not ideal for this particular application.

Edit: Re-posted as previously posted before completion by accident.

[Alex Atkin UK]

The whole idea that the car relies on a 12V battery that can become drained and stop everything working, even if the main battery is fine.

Why isn't it at least monitored and topped-up by the main battery?

[Chunkers]

The whole idea that the car relies on a 12V battery that can become drained and stop everything working, even if the main battery is fine.

Why isn't it at least monitored and topped-up by the main battery?

It seems odd, I know, my Tesla (a battery only vehicle with a big battery) also has a 12V car battery!  If this battery fails then similarly the car won't function as it runs all the low voltage electronics. I believe it is charged from the HV battery via a DC-DC converter.

I think this is fairly common in EV's and hybrids, I believe the first Tesla roadsters did not have this battery and everything was powered from the main battery.  The reason why they have this, as it has been explained to me, is that you can't quickly disconnect and replace the main HV battery, nor can you charge it without BMS and switching.  Apparently this led to some early Teslas with flat main batteries being completely bricked i.e. chicken and egg, can't charge it without power in the battery and the battery is dead

It's a pain in the ... but changing a 12V car battery is lot easier than towing a car with a flat battery back to the garage.

C