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Author Topic: Best wiring between junction box and master socket for g.fast?  (Read 702 times)

jwgs

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Best wiring between junction box and master socket for g.fast?
« on: February 03, 2021, 02:05:40 AM »

Hi all

I'm new to this forum but I have searched extensively and don't think I can find an answer to my question so apologies if I've missed it elsewhere. My question is whether it is better to have the internal wiring between the end of the drop cable and the master socket be CW1308 or CW1724 (essentially CAT5E spec), specifically with regards to g.fast?

As a bit of context: my drop cable enters the property through the top of my front door frame and immediately enters a BT80 junction box where it is connected to "alarm style" untwisted cable (put in by a previous owner). From there, this untwisted cable runs for about 8 meters to the master socket (alongside several mains wires for some of that, as well as the fuse box for the house). There is then a 0.25m rj45 to rj11 patch lead between the master socket faceplate and the ZT link MT992 Openreach modem.

I am looking to move the master socket to make the internal cabling is short as possible and replace the alarm cable with standard spec CW1308 or CW1724 (or CAT5E if I can't get CW1724). This will result in the distance between the junction box and the master socket being about 3 meters (and more crucially, I suspect, it no longer running alongside the mains).

CW1724 doesn't seem to be very easy to get hold of, with the only place I can find being one eBay seller who does it in various lengths (10m here:https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10m-White-CW1724-2-Pair-CAT5E-BT-CABLES-Twisted-Telephone-Network-CW1308-10m/252386379743). Does this seem legitimate? If not, I think I can just use CAT5E since CW1724 is the same spec but 2 pairs instead of 4.

The reason I ask this is because there seems to have been a little research into whether CW1308 or CW1724 is better for VDSL with somewhat inconclusive results, but suggesting CW1308 might be slightly better given the actual wire is shorter for a given length of cable, since it has fewer twists. However, I want to know if this still holds for g.fast, since it operates at higher frequencies (and therefore may benefit more from the higher interference rejection of having a higher twist count??)? As I understand it Openreach switched from using CW1308 to CW1724 early in the VDSL rollout but switched back long before g.fast was introduced. However, I don't know if this was just for cost reasons, or whether they found CW1724 actually was worse?

I realise this debate may be fairly moot and in practice there may be no noticeable difference between the 2 cables but figured I'd ask since I'm trying to maximise my speed. For reference, the highest throughput speeds I have observed from the somewhat sporadic speed tests I've done is 128 down/22.9 up. I can't see the line speed since the MT992 modem is locked down but when the engineer installed it he said he got a sync of around 150 on a distance to cabinet of just over 300 metres. My BT wholesale checker stats show a clean range of 153.8-196.4 down/11.1-27.6 up and an impacted range of 101.7-156 down/8.6-18.1 up so hope I can get a little more on the downstream than I'm currently getting (I know the wholesale checker stats have to be taken with a pinch of salt).

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me with this! :)

TLDR: For the three metres between the drop cable junction box and the master socket is it better to use CW1308 or CW1724 for a g.fast line?

EDIT: before anyone says it, I know I'm not supposed to touch the cabling before the master socket, I accept the risks.
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Best wiring between junction box and master socket for g.fast?
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2021, 04:29:05 AM »

Between the drop cable and the master socket belongs to BT, you shouldn't touch it.
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j0hn

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Re: Best wiring between junction box and master socket for g.fast?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2021, 04:35:25 AM »

Use CW1308.

CW1724 is also much more akin to Cat5 than Cat5e if you count the twists.

Should really be OpenReach touching anything before the Master Socket but they aren't entering properties for remedial tasks during lockdown.

As long as you are aware that the wiring prior to the master socket belongs to OpenReach, if you are happy/confident doing the work, crack on.
Sounds like the previous owner already did anyway.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 04:39:33 AM by j0hn »
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4candles

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Re: Best wiring between junction box and master socket for g.fast?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2021, 03:28:18 PM »

Welcome to the forum.   :)

As long as you're proficient in doing it, no one will ever know.  ;)

After the signal has travelled 300m from the cab, I don't think a few feet inside the property are going to make any measurable difference. The main thing is to avoid the proximity of mains cables etc. I'd be quite happy with CW1308.
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burakkucat

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Re: Best wiring between junction box and master socket for g.fast?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2021, 05:46:52 PM »

I shall also recommend using CW1308 cable.  ;)
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Best wiring between junction box and master socket for g.fast?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2021, 11:53:08 PM »

Welcome to the forum.   :)

As long as you're proficient in doing it, no one will ever know.  ;)

After the signal has travelled 300m from the cab, I don't think a few feet inside the property are going to make any measurable difference. The main thing is to avoid the proximity of mains cables etc. I'd be quite happy with CW1308.

Indeed, I will add after the council replaced the windows I wasn't happy how they trapped the phone line next to the frame so I removed it, drilled a hole in the wall and completely removed the junction box, wiring the drop cable straight into the master socket.  I would have gotten BT to do it but didn't fancy having to argue about who should pay for it.

The funny thing was some people presumably from Openreach came later and added silicon to the hole I'd made, so I'm guessing there must have been cases where the council contractors illegally moved the line and they wanted to check.  They never came in the property to check the inside though.

Openreach contractors have been since when they added my second line and never said anything about the master socket.

Obviously I do not encourage people to do this as if you get it wrong it could be costly.
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DaveC

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Re: Best wiring between junction box and master socket for g.fast?
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2021, 09:40:27 AM »

I did something similar to Alex a few years ago, and haven't had any problems.  In my case, I had a poorly installed underground service feed - close to my house it was running only a few cm below the surface, and the ducting didn't actually reach all the way to the house.  It also had a joint outside, and then a small length of CW1304 or similar going through the wall into the master socket.

So I re-routed the feed to bury it deeper, and also to come straight through the wall in a different place, directly into the back of the master socket without any joints.  I also sunk the master sockets (two in my case, as I have two lines) into the wall, instead of having them surface mounted.

So that could be an option, depending on whether you can find a more suitable place to come into your house that can be reached by the existing external cable, and if you want to risk it going wrong....

EDIT: Thinking about this a bit more, the advantage would be that all the internal cabling would be beyond the master socket, so not BT's responsibility, and you would also have a "cleaner" master socket to test things in case of problems.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2021, 09:44:41 AM by DaveC »
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jwgs

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Re: Best wiring between junction box and master socket for g.fast?
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2021, 03:49:38 PM »

Thanks for all your help. I'll go with CW1308 and get it away from the mains wiring.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Best wiring between junction box and master socket for g.fast?
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2021, 04:34:21 PM »

Indeed, I will add after the council replaced the windows I wasn't happy how they trapped the phone line next to the frame so I removed it, drilled a hole in the wall and completely removed the junction box, wiring the drop cable straight into the master socket.  I would have gotten BT to do it but didn't fancy having to argue about who should pay for it.

The funny thing was some people presumably from Openreach came later and added silicon to the hole I'd made, so I'm guessing there must have been cases where the council contractors illegally moved the line and they wanted to check.  They never came in the property to check the inside though.

Openreach contractors have been since when they added my second line and never said anything about the master socket.

Obviously I do not encourage people to do this as if you get it wrong it could be costly.

Not a clue what's gone on, but for info purposes ... if we don't silicone a drilled hole we would get a 10-point defect should the auditors do an inspection.

This then starts the disciplinary process and as such, is a biggie.

Like I say, I've no interest in the back-story per-se, just trying to shed light on why the hole may have been siliconed up by OR as a retrospective safety blanket.  :)
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Best wiring between junction box and master socket for g.fast?
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2021, 06:40:46 PM »

Oh no, the Openreach fuzz are onto us!   ::)

Not a clue what's gone on, but for info purposes ... if we don't silicone a drilled hole we would get a 10-point defect should the auditors do an inspection.

This then starts the disciplinary process and as such, is a biggie.

Like I say, I've no interest in the back-story per-se, just trying to shed light on why the hole may have been siliconed up by OR as a retrospective safety blanket.  :)

It was more the fact they turned up at all to see if the window fitters had bodged things up.  Most of the houses are bought round here now so not sure how they knew to check.  Obviously not complaining.

Would they have taken issue with the cable being trapped between the brick and window frame?
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Re: Best wiring between junction box and master socket for g.fast?
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2021, 02:55:37 AM »

Welcome to the forum, Jwgs!
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Black Sheep

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Re: Best wiring between junction box and master socket for g.fast?
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2021, 11:16:12 AM »

Oh no, the Openreach fuzz are onto us!   ::)

It was more the fact they turned up at all to see if the window fitters had bodged things up.  Most of the houses are bought round here now so not sure how they knew to check.  Obviously not complaining.

Would they have taken issue with the cable being trapped between the brick and window frame?

Ha ha - I'm arresting you on behalf of the OR Fuzz, for crimes against G.fast !!  :) :)

To answer your question, this is a bug-bear of ours ... the fact that the builders 'trap' the wire when they fix the new frames in !!

Of course, policy is they/you should ring us to perform a 'line plant re-arrangement' but I can't remember this happening many times at all, over the years. Of course, depending on how 'trapped' the wire is, also depends on how quickly a fault develops.  ::)

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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Best wiring between junction box and master socket for g.fast?
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2021, 12:39:25 PM »

Ha ha - I'm arresting you on behalf of the OR Fuzz, for crimes against G.fast !!  :) :)

But but there's no G.fast on my cabinet. ;)

Of course, depending on how 'trapped' the wire is, also depends on how quickly a fault develops.  ::)

Ironically it was probably fine, they did such a "good" job that wind blows the silicon off on a regular basis.  They didn't make any effort at all to seal around the frame and even left bricks loose under the windowsill.  The original metal frames embedded in the brickwork were vastly superior.
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