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Author Topic: Router auto discover if its connected to adsl or vdsl cabinet  (Read 1849 times)

chuffer

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Router auto discover if its connected to adsl or vdsl cabinet
« on: January 22, 2021, 11:08:25 PM »

When using a new router with Adsl/Vdsl interfaces and allowing the TR69 auto login function what information, if any, is passed from the Dslam back to the router ?

In my case the router was supplied by another ISP so clearly the TR69 will not work but I was surprised that the Zyxel was unable to auto discover that is was connected to a Vdsl cabinet.

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burakkucat

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Re: Router auto discover if its connected to adsl or vdsl cabinet
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2021, 12:09:14 AM »

The TR069 functionality operates between the CPE and a system acting as a configuration server, deep inside ISP-land of the originating provider. It does not operate between the CPE and the DSLAM (or MSAN).
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Router auto discover if its connected to adsl or vdsl cabinet
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2021, 06:42:30 PM »

As far as ADSL and VDSL negotiation, AFAIK its pretty dumb.  It will simply try the best mode first, use whichever gains sync first.

However as ADSL and VDSL differ in how they operate, I'd expect the modem has to be pre-configured for the right mode as it wont be able to contact the TR069 server unless it has sync first and access to the right VLAN for that server.
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tubaman

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Re: Router auto discover if its connected to adsl or vdsl cabinet
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2021, 09:16:47 AM »

I'm a bit confused what you mean by "Zyxel was unable to auto discover that is was connected to a VDSL cabinet". With the numerous ZyXEL modems I've tried if both ADSL and VDSL are enabled they will happily sync with the live service - VDSL in my case.
If you mean that they don't auto configure for your ISP then no they do not, and I'm not aware that any device can do that without you telling it which ISP you are using and it then getting the connection details from a preconfigured list built into the device.
 :)

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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Router auto discover if its connected to adsl or vdsl cabinet
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2021, 06:32:46 PM »

I think there is a misunderstanding here of how ISPs use TR069.  They only use it on the modem/routers THEY provided, which will be pre-configured to the right settings.  Its not intended for you to be able to buy any old router and it auto-configure itself, its not that clever.
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chuffer

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Re: Router auto discover if its connected to adsl or vdsl cabinet
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2021, 04:44:50 PM »

Thanks for the replies and I'm sorry if I was unclear.

I have a S/H Zyxel router which I believe was supplied to a John Lewis user, but I'm not sure.
JL is managed by my ISP, Plusnet, and my support desk thought that if they applied the routers model and/or serial no to my account they were confident the TR69 setup would work and auto setup to my PN. account.

This is the method PN use for those using the PH issued routers on both adsl and vdsl cabinets and I know this works.

The new issued router does not contain any pre-confugured user info just a link to the ISP's TR69 setup server and from there uses the serial number to identify and collect the required user's login details and installs them to the router.

So it gets the login username/password but what else ? ( are the Vlan settings of p= 0 q=101 uk wide for all ISP's and might it set that also ?? )

Clearly as Alex confirms, this could never work if the router cannot first discover which interface to use as it could never get to the config server.

There must be something the Dsalm indicates to the router which interface is active, hence...................
 
"In my case the router was supplied by another ISP so clearly the TR69 will not work but I was surprised that the Zyxel was unable to auto discover that is was connected to a Vdsl cabinet."
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j0hn

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Re: Router auto discover if its connected to adsl or vdsl cabinet
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2021, 10:01:59 PM »

Quote
This is the method PN use for those using the PH issued routers on both adsl and vdsl cabinets and I know this works

The new issued router does not contain any pre-confugured user info just a link to the ISP's TR69 setup server and from there uses the serial number to identify and collect the required user's login details and installs them to the router.

When i used the Plusnet Hub One with Plusnet it came pre-confugured for ADSL/VDSL.

Quote
So it gets the login username/password but what else ? ( are the Vlan settings of p= 0 q=101 uk wide for all ISP's and might it set that also ?? )

As above that part is already configured.
It couldn't connect to TR-069 without that being setup already.

Quote
There must be something the Dsalm indicates to the router which interface is active, hence...................

Clarified by ejs below.

ISP's can't set anything ISP specific in the VDSL2 DSLAM's.
It's generic sync settings for all ISP's.

Plusnet pre-confugure the xDSL settings and have the router connect somewhere to retrieve the login details.
It only needs to retrieve the username and password. That's the only part that's user specific.

I'd be surprised if Plusnet staff could get this working on a Zyxel, despite this being supplied by John Lewis broadband.

You may need to use something like Wireshark to check where the Plusnet Hub One connects to to initiate the setup process.
Then make sure the Zyxel connects to the same place.

I've no idea if the Plusnet Hub One initiates a PPP connection with a specific username/password when going through the initial setup process, but it must connect online somewhere beyond the DSLAM to do this.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 01:39:22 AM by j0hn »
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ejs

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Re: Router auto discover if its connected to adsl or vdsl cabinet
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2021, 06:16:16 PM »

The DSLAM and modem negotiate the mode of operation using G.994.1. I think even G.fast still uses G.994.1 at the start. It's a two way process, information is exchanged between both ends. I think it's only Lantiq VDSL2 modems that cycle between VDSL2 and ADSL while trying to establish a connection, and that's because they load different firmware for VDSL2 and ADSL. If other modems need to reset bits of themselves internally while preparing for one or other mode, then they don't make it so obvious.

Yes Plusnet have a common PPP user/password for their routers to connect with while they retrieve the specific details for the account.
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chuffer

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Re: Router auto discover if its connected to adsl or vdsl cabinet
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2021, 03:15:20 PM »

jOhn.
PN staff understood both were addressing the same somewhere server and thus would retrieve the settings for the account.
The object of this exercise was to force a firmware update. ( if available )

ejs.
I'm sure you know that the first time setup instructions for both PN and JL read........

Plugin & power up your router, go make a cup of tea and come back in 10/15 minutes ( or words to that effect )
As far as I can tell the Zyxel 3925 & 8924 use Broadcom chip sets and the PN Hub1 is lantiq.

If the Broadcom don't/won't auto discover I would expect the forums to be awash with first time connection problems.

The other curious thing is that the Zyxels have a "quick start" option and is only questions are................

1    time zone
      indicates it's currently set to PPPoA  (?)
2    username & password
3    fixed or dynamic ip address
4    Enable wireless.

This does not work and when I checked the three interfaces setups I was very surprised to discover that "my choices" were only entered in the Adsl section (?), so again it would not connect, it got worse, entering my choices in Vdsl it still would not connect and I discovered Vlan was not enabled and the p & q settings were blank.

(?) But, might it be that if auto discover worked it would have set default to PPPoE

There is an advanced settings tab on the broadband page which is headed "If xDSL setting is changed, the CPE will require a retrain."
it has 9 entries under DSL modulation all of which including ADSL2 & VDSL2 are enabled as are all 8 entries under VDSL profile.

Worth just stating ( as I'm sure you know ) that ISP issued router generally have bespoke firmware and in the case of the 3925 the update firmware option is removed from the maintenance menu.
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tubaman

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Re: Router auto discover if its connected to adsl or vdsl cabinet
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2021, 04:05:49 PM »

No routers 'auto discover' as far as I'm aware. They come with pre-configured setups for either the ISP that supplied them or, in the case of shop bought ones, various common ISPs.
The TR069 feature is used on ISP supplied routers so they can 'phone home' and collect new config files and firmware if available, or be triggered by the ISP to update. This only works if the TR069 parameters are setup in the router beforehand.
Happy to be corrected on this, but that is how I understand it.
 :)
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burakkucat

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Re: Router auto discover if its connected to adsl or vdsl cabinet
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2021, 05:07:03 PM »

This only works if the TR069 parameters are setup in the router beforehand.

Correct. That is the essence of how the TR069 process operates.
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chuffer

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Re: Router auto discover if its connected to adsl or vdsl cabinet
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2021, 01:55:04 PM »

I understand that all ISP using a custom firmware and TR69 will have their own way of doing it and I can only say what I see.

I do not now have a PN Hub 1 to check but the Zyxel 3925, probably supplied by John Lewis, following a reboot deletes all user information and returns it to "new out of the box" condition.

I connect it to a computer but not to a x-dsl line and login using the default user & password.

Under the broadband setup page there are three interface options, adsl, vdsl & ethwan.

All three have the same setups of user name of kctr69 and a password and as previously said it will not connect when plugged into the line.

This in it's self is not surprising or of a great problem to me although I was hoping for a firmware update. ( the object of the exercise )

A fail here leads to trying the quick start option and for clarity I repeat the options here.

1    time zone
      indicates on that page it's currently set to PPPoA  (?)
2    username & password
3    fixed or dynamic ip address
4    Enable wireless.

I connect the line and enter the information in the 4 places and it will still not connect.

I checked the three interfaces setups and "my choices" were only entered in the Adsl section and the tr69 settings remained in the other 2 (?)

However it is expected to work,  it's clear that the router firsts intended/needed to "auto discover" which of the three interfaces was active, which it clearly did not do although it appears to work now in all other aspects.

OR..........
IF some "indication" from the Dslam indicating " active" was not forth coming. ( contentious thought )

I should also add that I have never attempted a TR69 function connection with my Hub 1 preferring a manual setup.

(?) But, if auto discover had worked, it might have set default to PPPoE in quick start, put "my choices" in Vdsl and it would have connected, if it could resolve the vlan settings correctly, ( which were disabled and blank ) or it may have added another question.

I'll reword my original question,     slightly...............

When using a rebooted, to new supplied condition, router with Adsl/Vdsl combined interface and set-up with a TR69 auto login function what information, other than user/password,  is passed back to the router ?

ejs comments..........
"because they load different firmware for VDSL2 and ADSL. If other modems need to reset bits of themselves internally while preparing for one or other mode, then they don't make it so obvious."

As my Zyxel had not auto discovered it was connected to a Vdsl line what, it anything, might it be missing and possibly affecting it's performance ?.
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j0hn

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Re: Router auto discover if its connected to adsl or vdsl cabinet
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2021, 05:32:29 PM »

All three have the same setups of user name of kctr69 and a password and as previously said it will not connect when plugged into the line.

Looks like that could be a KCom supplied device and not John Lewis.

Quote
If the Broadcom don't/won't auto discover I would expect the forums to be awash with first time connection problems.

Do they actually supply any Broadcom modems though? If not then so such issues would arise.

John Lewis is just a Plusnet reseller. It's not Plusnet at the end of the day.

I'd expect John Lewis to have their own TR-069 settings to with their own routers.

I also wouldn't necessarily expect a Plusnet Hub One to automatically work on John Lewis broadband either, although maybe someone knows otherwise?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2021, 06:08:29 PM by j0hn »
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burakkucat

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Re: Router auto discover if its connected to adsl or vdsl cabinet
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2021, 07:20:17 PM »

I suspect that if the device was de-branded back to vanilla ZyXEL all of its eccentricities would then disappear.   
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chuffer

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Re: Router auto discover if its connected to adsl or vdsl cabinet
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2021, 01:09:25 PM »

Whilst I have never used PN tr69setup for myself I have for others and it certainly works.

Even two friends who were PN Adsl users and the PN supplied Sagecom routers, and upgraded to Vdsl, were sent  Hub 1's and told to plug it in straight away with the usual instructions of ..................

Plug it in then............
"This is the easy part. Your Hub needs a few minutes to configure settings and connect to the Internet. While it's doing this, go make yourself a drink.Wait for at least 5 minutes before moving on to the next step.


Once you've finished your drink, just open your web browser of choice (e.g Internet Explorer, Safari, Chrome, Firefox) and you should see your home page.

The same information can be found on the John Lewis support pages for Zyxel routers........ almost word for word.

They tr69 to their accounts and when some days later the lines were changed to Vdsl they reconnected without any user intervention.
Obviously this changed the wifi SSID and password.

Routers chip sets.
BT HH5 & PN Hub1, SoC: Lantiq XWAY VRX268 (PSB 80910 EL V1.2) MIPS 34Kc

Per the VRX268 product brief


ZyXEL VMG3925-B10B - Dual-Band Wireless AC VDSL2 Combo WAN Gigabit Gateway with USB

Broadcom BCM63168 chipset (GbE) - Dual Band Wireless AC (2x USB, SIM)



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