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Author Topic: Questioning Openreach Engineers  (Read 7196 times)

David Simpson

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2020, 04:34:20 PM »

I see there is another thread about "HAM Band Notch". But are there any such "Band Notches"(Filtering or Blocking circuitry ?) for sub 25KHz ADSL tones or frequencies. I seem to recall that some VLF Nav Aids are still in use, but don't know their frequencies.
       I have a HAM licence, but haven't been on-air for quite some time. Just 80m(approx 3.6MHZ), but that's way above ADSL's 1.104 MHz. My rig is a restored 1950's AM HF ex Marine Band Tx & a lovely old Eddystone Rx, but nowadays the 80m Band, AM-wise, is full of noise, eastern european chatter, & SSB yappers. In my contact with local amateur radio chums over the years, I've not heard of any Ham related ADSL matters. There is a massive military VLF TX Station about 12 miles away, but I haven't a clue of frequencies involved. I doubt if local normal O/R mannies in vans would ken onything aboot sich matters.

                                                                        Regards,   David
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burakkucat

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2020, 05:47:52 PM »

Talking of voltages etc., Guard/UL/DL tone-wise are we talking uV & uA, or perhaps a mV or two. I'm guessing that some of the DIL chips & micro-circuitry in HomeHubs & Modems have an amplification roll ?

Previously, above, I was just mentioning the telephony situation with regards to the incoming pair. As for the internals of a modem (or modem/router), I have never closely looked or analysed . . . All I can say, for certain, is that there is a high-pass filter before the analogue front-end. The high-pass filter is just a pair of appropriately rated capacitors, one in each leg of the pair.

When I am checking for any potential RF ingress into a xDSL circuit, I will use my Icom IC-R5 tuned to 300 kHz.

As for any other relevant frequencies, I'll have to let other members answer the question.
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burakkucat

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2020, 06:05:11 PM »

I've just had a thought. Have you seen Stephen Wilson's (G3VMW) "Staying Connected to Your Broadband ‐ An Improved ADSL Filter" article (a PDF file)?

It was originally written back when ADSL (ITU-T Recommendation G.992.1) was the then current technology.

Other sites that I use for reference, when considering xDSL problems, are --

http://www.mediumwaveradio.com/
https://www.short-wave.info/
http://www.frequencyfinder.org.uk/
https://tx.mb21.co.uk/

[Edited to correct the paw slippage, as noticed by Weaver.]
« Last Edit: December 12, 2020, 08:11:53 PM by burakkucat »
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tiffy

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2020, 06:06:40 PM »

Quote
O/R mannies in vans

It's a long time since I heard reference to "mannies", thought I was back in the north east again!
Spent a lot of my working life in or mostly transiting through Aberdeen so was practically fluent in Doric.
Perhaps you should explain "mannie" to the uninitiated, might even elaborate further on "lune, quine and wifie".
I remember the standard greeting to a young lad was "fit like lune".

Also a long lapsed radio ham, internet growth just made world wide communication too easy.

Sorry to digress from topic, couldn't resist!
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Weaver

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2020, 07:12:23 PM »

Should "G.993.1" read "G.992.1" ?
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burakkucat

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2020, 08:13:20 PM »

Should "G.993.1" read "G.992.1" ?

  :-[  Yes, of course. The paw slippage has now been corrected. Thank you.
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David Simpson

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2020, 12:40:17 PM »

Many thanks to Burakkucat for those links.
Re "Tiffy" - hopefully the Mods wont mind a bit of explanation on local dialects in the North of Scotland. Like Weaver in Skye, no doubt, in the NW I picked up a smattering of Gaelic. Then since arriving at RAF Lossiemouth in '73, I've picked up a fair bit of the "Doric". More so since moving to Aberdeenshire in '84, after leaving the NW.
      But hey, the word "Tiffy" has an extra meaning for me, as 8Sqdn at Lossie was half Navy/half RAF. A Tiffy was an Artificer trained technician - a bit above the normal ranking scales, so many gained PO or CPO status quicker. My ventures into Ham radio were just a side-line, as I could obviously no longer Tx half-way around the globe on military HF equipment. Nor, since ceasing working on marine equipment, could I legally yap to fishing boats, coastal stations or oil rigs. Anyway, nowadays its vintage radio, test equipment, etc. which I'm involved with. And recent ventures into understanding B/B & ADSL have been an eye opener & grey cell enhancer. Plus raising my BP(must be careful with that) over BT & O/R inadequacies in our rural area. 'Not singing from the same hymn sheet' is a common term up here in the NE.

                                                                              Regards,   David
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tiffy

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2020, 03:06:55 PM »

Hi David,
Yes indeed, well spotted, Tiffy refers to my old trade, instrument technician in the petrochemical industry.
The origin I believe goes back to the late 1950's, 1960's when ICI in Teeside first decided that there was a requirement for a "third" trade beyond fitters and electricians specifically to work on the new fangled control systems, a lot of which were pneumatic in those days before industrial electronics really took off.

Being a new trade at the time, ICI decided to adopt the forces terminology of "Instrument Artificer" as the closest anology to the job requirements, being a bit of a mouthful, this was quickly shortened to Tiffy and has remained the case ever since with the official job title now being Instrument Technician.

Regarding HF radio comm's, this had been officially dropped in the larger North Sea installations before I left 5 years ago, had been used as a backup for the LOS/Tropo first line comm's, satellite changed all that of course.

Have also found the DSL technology facinating, have become quite addicted to stat's monitoring and learned an awful lot from the patrons of this site.
However, things are changing very quickly now with the big push to FTTP, nothing to monitor then, either works or doesn't work, no in betweens!

Apologies again for drifting off topic.   
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busterboy

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2020, 03:16:04 PM »

Hi David,
Yes indeed, well spotted, Tiffy refers to my old trade, instrument technician in the petrochemical industry.
The origin I believe goes back to the late 1950's, 1960's when ICI in Teeside first decided that there was a requirement for a "third" trade beyond fitters and electricians specifically to work on the new fangled control systems, a lot of which were pneumatic in those days before industrial electronics really took off.

Drifting further off topic so apologies in advance.....

In the late seventies and all the way through the eighties I picked up bagged fertilizer from ICI at Billingham being a lorry driver for 35 years of my life. :blush:
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David Simpson

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2020, 04:41:16 PM »

To get back onto subject, apart from the digital modulation twchniques, and the multitude of micro-processors in Modems & DSLAM's, (which my aged analogue brain struggles with), the basic use of audio frequencies & VLF/LF radio frequencies isn't rocket science. RF-wise, two wire(un-screened) usage was always going to be a problem, as opposed to us other lot mainly using Z rated co-ax, for BT & other ISP's. BT & O/R do their best to attain a high S/N Ratio, but externally - anything sparking or producing anything near a sq.wave is a bummer, RFI-wise(theoretically - infinite spectrum). One of the questions I always ask the O/R guys is ' have you seen anything suspicious between us & the exchange'. But their remit just seems limited to using the DMT Tool. In my early HEB Linesman training, and later Electrical Inspector training, we were encouraged to physically observe as much as we could network & installation - wise, as opposed to just using test equipment. I guess my current frustrations with BT & O/R stem from this.
        As for record keeping - Jesus, military-wise every action/repair/inspection had to be signed up, then oversigned by an NCO. In the recent D/O fiasco, the poor chap who carried out 12 hrs of work, said that he'd lost at least two hrs due to the wire pair changing done 3 years ago - not being written up in the exchange's log !  In the military, and I expect in the old GPO days, this would've been a serious disiplinary matter.
       
                                                              Regards,    David
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g3uiss

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2020, 04:58:42 PM »

Quote
https://tx.mb21.co.uk/

[Edited to correct the paw slippage, as noticed by Weaver.]

This link is interesting as I was able to review the history of Winter Hill. I was fortunate to have been to the top in the lift ( long taken out of service) on a visit by our local radio club.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2020, 10:07:10 AM »

This link is interesting as I was able to review the history of Winter Hill. I was fortunate to have been to the top in the lift ( long taken out of service) on a visit by our local radio club.

Worked at Winter Hill repeater station many times over the years. Treacherous drive up in winter time, but the views are spectacular on a clear summers day ... you can see over to the river Mersey and also down to Jodrell Bank.
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g3uiss

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2020, 11:15:08 AM »

Agreed a great view but access is restricted now or rather has been for some years. Never ventured in the winter, but I can imagine!
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David Simpson

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2020, 11:51:58 AM »

Never made it to Winter Hill with our school's cycling club(in Bootle), but made it to Parbold Hill, & Jodrell Bank.      DS
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tickmike

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2020, 07:37:21 PM »

Can you hear any noise when you Dial 17070 op2 (free call) on a land line phone.

Also does your very long line go near any Sheep electric fence's in the fields it passes ?.

My line is nearly 3mile long in old money I am on ADSL2 (Soon to get FTTP :) and get about 3.5 to 4Mbps on a good day with the wind in the right direction.

Can you post your Modem/Router Stats.

PM sent
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I have a set of 6 fixed IP's From  Eclipse  isp.BT ADSL2(G992.3) line>HG612 as a Modem, Bridge, WAN Not Bound to LAN1 or 2 + Also have FTTP (G.984) No One isp Fixed IP >Dual WAN pfSense (Hardware Firewall and routing).> Two WAN's, Ethernet LAN, DMZ LAN, Zyxel GS1100-24 Switch.
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