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[David Simpson]

I'll try attaching a scan of my BT B.B Checker info , as per "Starman's recommendation.
Moderators - - am I allowed to attach a copy of your "Kitz Broadband Availability Checker" results page ? As it seems to have more detailed & advanced info.

                                                        Regards,  David

[burakkucat]

Moderators - - am I allowed to attach a copy of your "Kitz Broadband Availability Checker" results page ? As it seems to have more detailed & advanced info.

Yes, certainly. Go ahead. 

[David Simpson]

Thank you burakkucat. Will try another attachment. Earlier this afternoon, I did post another entry, several sentences long, and accompanied by coloured 2 photos. It seemed to be rejected 'cos the photos were too big. Tried to do a reduction, but then got put back to an empty message box. Tried again with shorter writing & a photo which was under the quoted limit - - poof !  Back to an empty message box.

                                                  Regards,  David

[Black Sheep]

The local exchange is plonked right in the middle of the village.

That explains it then.

I wondered if you may have been fed via another larger town nearby (not knowing your location at the time), but I can see 'New Deer' has its Exchange right in the middle of it, next to the school ... and the estimator says you are fed through PCP2 (where the FTTC broadband product would begin its journey to you) ... which alas, is right outside the Exchange.

2.5 bananas (  for the pedants  ) is a very long line indeed, with which to achieve an FTTC connection. It's not totally unheard of, but you would certainly need to have sections of higher poundage cable in your circuits feed, to alleviate the dB losses. The 7pr cable you mention though, I have never seen that above 0.5mm in size, which is an average poundage for most circuits .... unfortunately for those in outlying areas.

All in all ... not much you can do until FTTP arrives, other than chase your intermittent fault, mate. 

[David Simpson]

Thanks Black Sheep for the honest assessment. Much as I expected. The "Dropping Out" has stopped just now, but I'm still pessimistic.
        When all the palaver started 3 years ago, I walked our nearest 3 pole spans with my 1950's ex marine portable  AM DF Rx . Two spans back, where the U/G cable rose up to the O/H JB, I detected, whilst standing about a meter away - hellish noise at approx. 225KHz(Tone 52/ Bin 53 ?). I told O/R this, and an older(ex GPO Linesman/Technician) called by with a wee 1960's Tranny in his tool bag & confirmed my results. Seemingly, he'd been using it for years, as O/R don't issue their (men in vans) with any sort of stand-alone RFI tracing equipment. Me thinks I'll walk a lot further if the weather improves.
   Me thinks that modern hengineers rely too much on their DMT TOOL, and DSLAM - MODEM adjustments(such as Bit Swapping, Active RFI cancellations, "Handshakes", & "Exchanges") - to sort out many faults. Rather than get out their Spikes, Belts, or Ladders & do some old - fashioned fault-finding in JB's. I recall back in 2017, over a three week period, about a dozen engineers came & went to us & our immediate neighbours. But only 3 said they were pole climbing certified or U/G chamber inspection certified. Christ, over 35 years ago, whilst working mainly as a commercial diver in the far north of Scotland, I did a six year stint as a Hydro-Board Emergency Linesman (240V S/PH. all the way up to 33KV). Consumers on remote mountainsides, or down remote valleys, would've shoved my spanner or screwdriver where the sun doesn't shine, if I had given some such excuse !
   The D/F Rx I used is the middle one of the 3 in my collection, in the photo.

                                                                     Regards,   David

[Black Sheep]

I can't speak on behalf of your previous engineers, but it is a fact that there are both single skilled and multi-skilled engineers within OR.

I won't get into one about it, as it grinds on me the fact that both get paid the same (dependant on service - the new starters get incentive payments to acquire more skills). The problem we have is down to how e operate and that was as a result of Ofcom .... you can't talk directly to us, you have to go through your provider .... they in turn will run a remote line test and it will inevitably come back as 'line tests ok', due to the fact it's ok a lot of the time.

The providers systems then tells the fault receptionist which skill of engineer to send. So, it is very easy to have a chap turn up that doesn't climb, or doesn't do UG ??

When interaction was allowed between us, just the fact that you are in the sticks would usually see a multi-skilled operative despatched in the first instance. 

[David Simpson]

Right enough BS, as I mentioned at the start - A great multi-skilled chap did come out recently & spent 12 hrs over a two day period, and worked his socks off. But the three other just did their DMT Tooling spiel, and one of them did whack our pole to house O/H cable, but that was it. Normal POTS has never been an issue, and I ring the "Quiet Line" facility from time to time. So no 300Hz to 3KHz Audio complaints. We now have a local area BT "Home Tech" - just started. A great clued-up Radio/Telecoms professional. Served his time in marine radio/telecoms, and even knew some of the old hands I worked with as an engineer with Woodsons Radio over 30 years ago, after I stopped diving.
        I've had a shufti at the Kitz "ADSL Technology & DMT" pages and studied the three examples of DMT Tool displays for :- "Bit Allocation & Power Cut Back", "Bit Allocation Table & Low SNR", "Bit Allocation & Long Lines". From the times I've managed to get a look at engineer's displays - I've never seen the first healthy display, but the 2nd & 3rd examples look familiar. So, a low bit allocation means slower speeds, I get that. I've never seen, or heard an eng. mention a display for the handful of bits allocated to the Guard VLF frequencies. If they suffer noise & SNR problems would that be a likely source of "Dropping Out". I.e. I'm phooked if the DSLAM & the Modem cant hold their virtual digital conversations ?

                                                                     Regards,   David

[Weaver]

> 0.37Mb Upload & 3.7Mb Download.

David I envy you, only 2.5 miles from the exchange ? I’m 4.5 miles from the exchange, best estimate I can make (7300m) although one Openreach document said cable length 8.1km which I find a bit strange. And I would love to have 3.7 Mbps downstream, although three of my lines are much better than yours at ~550 kbps sync rate.

Live sync rates:
  #1: down 3122 kbps, up 528 kbps
  #2: down 3001 kbps, up 579 kbps
  #3: down 3096 kbps, up 396 kbps
  #4: down 3206 kbps, up 573 kbps

My ZyXEL modem handles ultra-long lines very well, and my ISP is superb at dealing with faults.

If that speed isn’t enough for you, you could get a second line and bond the two together for double speed (I have four, for approx four times the speed in both directions; not so good in the upstream direction as downstream because of the weak line 3 upstream performance.)

That lot combined gives me 10.8 / 1.4 Mbps combined TCP payload on a good day, 10.2 / 1.15 Mbps on a bad day.

[Weaver]

> if the DSLAM & the Modem cant hold their virtual digital conversations ?

You need to increase the target SNRM as the modems are going too fast and need either/or more error correction information added, which extra data will slow them down, or else to go to a lower bit-loading makes the signal easier to interpret correctly.

My ISP’s controls let me adjust this. Some modems eg ZyXEL will let you adjust such things.

[David Simpson]

Many thanks Weaver for the info on improvement equipment options. When things are OK, dropping-out wise, I'm quite happy with the approx. 1 : 10 asymmetry of 0.37 : 3.7 Mb. I'm not a multi-media teenage addict, nor am I into Facebook, Facetime, whatever. My wife sometimes uses Facetime on her tablet. And, back in Sept. when all this nonsense started, our daughter was visiting for a few days & went mental 'cos she couldn't work reliably on her O/U coursework. So I went mental & berated BT. Otherwise, my main usage is involvement with a forum site identical to this - UK VRR&R, and occasionally VMARS.
       I've no fancy telecoms/computer equipment just - - O/R Master socket 5C on the window ledge, 18" away - the HomeHub6, about 2' away in the hallway - a BT Freestyle 710 with a wander handset. Out of the HH6 runs an ethernet cable about 8m long to my office/workshop in a lean-to out back. That terminates in a NETGEAR Fast Internet Switch FS608 v2, feeding an W10 HP Tower Unit & another BT F/S 710. Not much difference in BTW Speedtests either using my W10 HP laptop close to the HH6 or on the tower unit. Dropping - Out triggers wee warning boxes appearing on laptop or tower unit screens. Look at the HH - - Flashing Orange, the steady orange, than back to blue. At worst these sequences appear every 4 or 5 minutes for over an hour at a time. Back in Oct., one Eng. told me over 200 D/O's were recorded.
       So, is there a modestly costed wee device I could plug into a spare port in my HH6 or the Netgear FS608 which would enable me to see Bit Charts & other DMT Tool displays on a computer . Or is there a simple downloadable APP which could do the same. Note the word "Simple" - I'm just an (old) old fashioned analogue guy, electronics - wise.
       Getting back to the original subject question - I'm thinking of drawing up a wee questionnaire containing half a dozen pertinent questions. E.g. first question - is there -48V between the B & A lines ? - - and so on. Hey, someone told me that +ve floats at approx. earth potential, is that correct ? Obviously, its years since BT(GPO) incorporated an earth wire in the POTS supply to homes. But is it used for cable screening or Pole/UG JB's ?

                                                                               Regards,  David

[Weaver]

About interrogating your router. I don’t know much about the HomeHub. Broadcom-chipset routers and modems, such as ZyXEL, can display detailed stats and my ZyXEL modem can display such itself without even needing a special app, as it has a built-in secondary webserver which logs and records statistics and so a web browser can display detailed graphs over time etc and current statistics. With this kind of router you can also directly get current statistics using telnet. ZyXEL modems and routers are strongly recommended.

[burakkucat]

is there -48V between the B & A lines ? - - and so on. Hey, someone told me that +ve floats at approx. earth potential, is that correct ?

The time has long since passed when the polarity was relevant and that leads me to the question: "How would you know which were the A & B wires of the pair?"

The answer is to earth the positive probe of your DVM (or analogue meter) and with the negative probe, test each wire. The wire showiing the greater potential difference is the B-wire, the wire with the lesser potential difference is the A-wire.

Go back to the electromechanical (Strowger) days and the potential difference between the wires of the pair could vary between 48 to 52 Volts, depending upon line length and its poundage. It was described a constant voltage feed (within limits).

With electronic switching, either System X or System Y, I have been told that the local loop is now a constant current feed (within limits).

[David Simpson]

Thanks Weaver, I might well follow your advice & obtain a ZyXEL Modem if I experience more of these annoying episodes of dropping-out. Are they expensive, and is there a reliable supplier ?
       Right enough, Burakkucat, I appreciate the irrelavence of line polarity these days. Actually 3 years back, several O/R guys kept changing the wall socket face plate filters. So, one day I stripped a discarded one bare & circuit traced & measured every resistor, capacitor & choke. And noted their relavent pin conn. numbers. Pin 5 (Red incoming wire) & Pin 2 (Green) on the rear term. strip actually exhibited 49V. And, as you've said might happen, my DMM revealed the green wire(pin 2) as the more -ve "B" wire. One or two experienced eng's have said in the past that 48/49V is what they expect to see.
       Talking of voltages etc., Guard/UL/DL tone-wise are we talking uV & uA, or perhaps a mV or two. I'm guessing that some of the DIL chips & micro-circuitry in HomeHubs & Modems have an amplification roll ?
        Also,(apologies for all these questions, I'm just trying to get my grey cells around 21st century technology), which important(Guard?) frequencies are susseptable to harmonic interference/distortion or other problems ? I've nothing that can detect sub-25KHz RFI-wise. I've a wee h/held GDO/RF detector, but that goes no lower than 70KHz.
       Hey, as recompence for all my heffing questions, & my gratitude for helpful replies, if any of you guys have a leaning towards vintage radio/electronics - please get in touch, particularly in regard to valves & valve testing. And, a wealth of more experienced/qualified expertise can be elicited on the UK VRR&R Forum(www.vintage-radio.net). Like youse folk - very helpful guys.

                                                   Regards,   David

[broadstairs]

Regarding ZyXEL routers the VMG8924 and the VMG3925 are ones I can vouch for as I have used both and currently have my 3925 in use not been booted for 241 days and the DSL link has been up 64+ days. Second user items usually available on eBay for between £20-£40. Both have 5ghz wifi, although I have mesh wifi system as it is problematic in my house!

Stuart

[Weaver]

Agree with Broadstairs. I use ZyXEL VMG1312-B10A devices but mine are configured to be in straight modem-only mode, ie they are not routers, although they can be easily. But Broadstairs’ recommended models have better wireless LAN capability and are slightly easier to get hold of. Mine have been extremely reliable never crashed or hung. My units are set up to be modems because I have four lines and so four modems and a router to handle them all. Burakkucat and Kitz herself both use ZyXEL routers as do others of our tribe.