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Author Topic: Questioning Openreach Engineers  (Read 7287 times)

David Simpson

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Questioning Openreach Engineers
« on: December 07, 2020, 09:16:32 PM »

As a newbie to this Forum, please bear with me as to questions raised. I wont boor you with the recent troubles I've encountered with BT & Openreach, as I'm sure many other subscribers in remote areas experience the same these days.
       Since experiencing a horrendous bout of "Dropping-Out" about 3 years ago, I've made an effort to become acquainted with my POTS/ADSL 2.5 mile line from the exchange which I share with a couple of dozen other farming premises & cottages. Thanks to Kitz, and my pre-retirement employment as an electrical inspector & registered(MIET) electronics technician(more analogue than digital), I've managed to get my head around ADSL & the Audio/VLF/LF/MF frequencies up to 1.1MHz. My problem is asking the O/R Engineers the pertinent questions relating to the information they observe on their h/held analyser/tool. Some engineers are reluctant to show me the Bit Allocation Chart or S/N Chart. Many guys simply say that they don't know anything about the electronics involved. Many wont study the TDR info & jolly well set off walking the line. Mind you, just recently(more horrendous drop-outs) one brilliant guy spent 12 hours over 2 days doing just that & found over 50 faults. But he was the exception. Some guys say that they are not "Pole Climbing" trained, others say their not U/G JB trained.
      So, please, is there a basic list of questions that I should ask ? Also, are Openreach legally obliged to reveal their test info, either visually or in writing ?

                                                                                               Regards,   David
         
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burakkucat

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2020, 10:25:52 PM »

Welcome to the Kitz forum.  :)

. . . are Openreach legally obliged to reveal their test info, either visually or in writing ?

To the end-user, i.e. you or me, no.

To their customers, i.e. service providers, it depends upon the contract under which they provide the facility (to the service provider(s)).
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4candles

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2020, 11:21:57 PM »

Hi David, and welcome to the forum  :) - the ideal place to discuss bit allocations, SNR etc.

At the risk of invoking the evacuation of eggs by grandmothers - are you familiar with the tools provided by DSLstats and RouterStats?

One or other could help produce your own line stats, depending which router you have.
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Weaver

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2020, 02:04:52 AM »

Welcome to the forum David!  ;D

If by chance you use a ZyXEL modem then we have some custom firmware developed by members johnson and later by siofjof that produces graphs including bitloading from a built-in secondary webserver in the modem itself. The user can then produce very informative stuff without any extra software even being required and it also has the benefit if you are using the device as a straight modem, not a modem-router, that the modem will support a PPP MTU of 1508 for a full IP MTU of 1500, not a reduced MTU of 1492. I use this on my VMG 1312-B10 modems and other models are supported too: see https://github.com/johnson442/custom-zyxel-firmware/releases. If you are using FTTC with vectoring take a look instead at siofjof’s build (we can dig out the url for that).

I find this custom software to be superb and it’s built from sources supplied by ZyXEL with johnson’s own huge contributions too. Even if you don’t use it, then excellent applications for a PC are available as already discussed. If you use no software at all, with a Broadcom chipset-based modem, or modem-router, you can telnet into the device and access its CLI to get stats including bitloading iirc.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2020, 11:26:33 AM »

Hi David

I could spend hours chatting about this, but obviously won't do. It is quite difficult to answer a question that also brings individuals own personalities into the equation .... not just the engineer, but also the end user.

I use the term end-user, because officially that it what you are, David. Although I hate the term, the fact is our customer is the service provider and you in turn are theirs. So, our remit is to perform 'x' amount of agreed tests on-site, which then get automatically filtered back to the provider.
Our job is to prove to them that the metallic path facility they rent from us, passes an agreed 'cone of acceptance' test. Plus, to carry out an agreed 5 minute DSL test and an agreed audible noise test on the landline.

If all three pass (the first two tests being auto pass or fail, the last is dependant on the individuals hearing ability), then we are expected to pack up and leave and move onto the next customer.

Of course, this practice may benefit lets say 80-90% of customers, but there's always that grey area that will see repeat visits, I'm afraid. The reason the agreed COA tests are there, is to protect OR from the totally pedantic folk out there who chase a 0.5dB swing in SNR as a fault, wasting time and money for all concerned. Believe me, they exist .... some are on here  ;) ;D. But genuine difficult/intermittent faults can also suffer as a result of this agreement.

However, the hierarchy are more than aware of these issues and have a triage team that should liaise with the provider after a certain amount of EU visits have occurred. Failing that, there's also the chairman's office team, as a last resort.

Regarding the engineers .... as with all walks of life and any mahoooosive company like OR, you get the full spectrum of people. I myself do not understand whatsoever, why you would not want to engage the EU and get them involved in what you are doing. I have only had ONE person tell me he had no interest in it and to 'Just fix it', in all my years faulting.
Most folk are eager to know what's going on and will quite happily listen to a laymans' chat about how DSL works and what we are looking for with out test equipment. More-so when you do have an intermittent fault, as you can show the EU that no amount of trying, the issue will not manifest itself whilst we are there on-site. It at least goes some way to show that we are trying to resolve or locate a problem.

But ... I've witnessed it with my own eyes, you do get the 'grunt' as we call them round here. Basically, rocks up, hardly any conversation in them, grunts a few words and buggers off. Seen them in hospitality roles throughout our travels and I often wonder WTF they have gone into a role they clearly have no patience or aptitude for ??

There's nowt as queer as folk, someone once said.


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David Simpson

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2020, 12:38:14 PM »

Many thanks Guys for the encouraging replies. Having lived at the same address for 30 years, and being a BT customer all that time, plus having Internet access for about 20 years - - I guess we as a family had taken for granted our 2 wire rural O/H line. But about three years back annoying faults started. Back then, reporting faults involved call centers based in India, and I found that learning a smattering of Hindi produced wonderous results - quicker O/R  visit bookings, getting passed on up to 2nd level knowledgeable staff & so on. So hey, me thinks that a similar approach is required with visiting O/R staff. More out of politeness than any sort of banging-on about my old electronics training & qualifications from an analogue yesteryear.
       Thanks to Kitz, & info on the Wiki site I was able to gen up on basic ADSL principals involving a mixture of analogue & digital functions(6). Approx minus 48V DC on the B & A wires, 25Hz 75V AC Ringtone, Speech, Guard, Upload, Download. Then we get to the use of approx 250 virtual modems, QPSM, the micro-processing on the DSLAM board - - & so on - all wonderous but beyond my old analogue trained grey cells.
       But now, with the latest spell of broadband faults, I guess I need to remove my digit & attempt to understand the 21st century technology. Mind you, our village exchange has gone fibre, but our remote postcode will not be eligeable till 2025. So me thinks that O/R is quietly giving up on the remaining spiders web of aging long O/H & U/G copper wiring. (Thankfully - no aluminium, I'm assured).
        Hence joining this jolly interesting Forum & hopefully benefiting from much wiser & experienced guys.

                                            Regards,    David
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Black Sheep

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2020, 12:49:33 PM »

Mind you, our village exchange has gone fibre, but our remote postcode will not be eligeable till 2025.
       
                                            Regards,    David


Interesting .... when you say 'has gone fibre', do you mean full FTTP, or FTTC (Fibre to the Cab only) ?? Your line length from the Exchange to your premises is only 2.5km you mention, if it is FTTC and you have a Cab in the village, you may be able to benefit from higher speeds ??

Or, you could have been on a E/O line which means if it is FTTC, the Cab would be outside the telephone exchange (ie 2.5km away), which means the FTTC frequencies would struggle to reach you.
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David Simpson

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2020, 03:26:26 PM »

The whole inter Village Network is Full 50Mb+, UG cabling. Villagers & close by residents all boast about their 50Mb speeds. Only those rural residents within a couple of hundred metres of the village to village UG fibre cabling get a fibre supply. The rest of us(some even over 3 miles away) are stuck with our ancient 2 wire POTS. When the scheme was announced over 4 years ago, I phoned the designated BT phone no & was told my postcode would get fibre in 2022. I inquired again back in August & was told 2025. One or two pessimistic O/R engineers quietly laughed at this.
        So, I'm stuck with POTS/ADSL. If I'm lucky, I get an approx. asymmetry of 1:10, i.e. 0.37Mb Upload & 3.7Mb Download. In recent months the D/L speeds have been dropping to less than 1Mb & I've given up keeping a log of the numerous drop-outs. I received a brand new BT HomeHub6 about 5 weeks ago & an Eng. fitted a brand new Master Socket 5C. Ten days ago, another Eng. tells me the HH6 tends to suffer drop-outs at the end of such long lines. He reckoned the HH5 was more reliable.
        So, an O/R Eng. comes into your house, listens to you whinging about multiple D/O's & slow speeds, then removes the M/S's front plate & wires in the tails from his "Tester"/ DMT TOOL/ "Hand Held"/ Analyser - - ? - - -  all different descriptive names used by different engineers. What is the correct name, and am I right in assuming that there are two types currently in use ? Then - what is the sequence of testing/analysis he carries out ? ( Jesus - I wish I could get my hands on a decent one). (Hey - back in the 60's I used to service & repair RAF TDR's - over 2ft Sq. & weighed a CWT).

                                                                                   Regards,  David
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Black Sheep

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2020, 04:12:33 PM »

There are only two types of hand-held tester (some updated versions of the two, as well) but they are simply the JDSU & EXFO testers.

The first test an engineer really would do is the simplest, listen to the dial tone for any signs of noise ... as if the low frequency audible signal is affected, the HF DSL signal will definitely be !!

Then, I personally would take the socket apart (as there may be high-resistance issues within the actual socket components), and attach the HHT direct to the incoming pair of wires. At this point, the engineer will perform the 'Pair Quality Test' which is an auto-scripted test looking at a plethora of different values, and very simply sums it up as a pass or a fail. Because of the 'cone of acceptance' a 'pass' may be very borderline and that is where knowledge is power.

Then, the 5-minute DSL close-out test will be performed, which sees the HHT hooked up as a modem and again it is an auto-scripted test that logs onto the ISP's RAS, and pings data back and forth looking to see if there is any data corruption present. Again, it is a pass or fail, but again .... experience and knowledge is power in interpreting a 'pass' result.

A simple method that can be deployed to try and 'force' a fault to occur, especially if it is a high-resistance issue, is to ring the landline number when the HHT is connected as a modem monitoring data flow. Another may be to bash the overhead wire with our measuring rods whilst data is flowing, especially if the wire goes through trees and rubs in poor weather ??. There's a few little tricks the seasoned engineer will have up his sleeve ...... but to get all pedantic (which is actually a bug bear of mine :-) ), our remit is to perform the tests as above. Nothing more, unless a faulty reading has been recorded on the HHT.

As an aside, I'm struggling to understand the lay-out of your villages connection ?? Is the telephone Exchange actually located in your village, or is it elsewhere ?? 2.5km is not a long line at all dependant on where the relevant equipment is located.
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Starman

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2020, 06:50:11 AM »

The whole inter Village Network is Full 50Mb+

David, It might be helpful especially to Black Sheep to visit https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/ and provide the resulting output however please be mindful to remove your actual telephone number which will appear at the top LHS. Attached is an example output from my own line - it provides the exchange, and local cabinet.
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tubaman

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2020, 08:42:30 AM »

...
As an aside, I'm struggling to understand the lay-out of your villages connection ?? Is the telephone Exchange actually located in your village, or is it elsewhere ?? 2.5km is not a long line at all dependant on where the relevant equipment is located.

Agree, when I was on ADSL, with a line length of approx 3km, I was getting about 7Mbps download and about 0.7Mbps upload. You should be getting a lot more than you are if the line is really only 2.5km.
 :)
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4candles

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2020, 10:57:51 AM »

You should be getting a lot more than you are if the line is really only 2.5km.
 :)

The OP says 2.5 miles.
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2020, 11:28:45 AM »

Agree, when I was on ADSL, with a line length of approx 3km, I was getting about 7Mbps download and about 0.7Mbps upload. You should be getting a lot more than you are if the line is really only 2.5km.
 :)

My line was about 2km (as the crow flies, so likely longer) but a certain amount of that is aluminium so it was 5.8Mbit only when I could push a 3dB SNRm, when MaxDSL came along that dropped to 3.2Mbit.
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David Simpson

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2020, 11:38:00 AM »

The local exchange is plonked right in the middle of the village. It was completely refurbished back in the late 90's. All the old electro-mechanical racking was ripped out & replaced by U/T/D Digital equipment. Hell, I spent a half day there commissioning the new 3PH mains supply & testing all the metalwork bonding, wearing my electricity board's inspector hat. One long main st/high st, with cabling under-grounded & village poles removed back then. Obviously, the recent fibre project has changed all that. Those of us out in the hinterland of fields & lanes & single track roads, get our POTS/ADSL fed out of old green roadside cabinets out on the edge of the village. Then laterals of multi-cored U/G cables with changes to pole mounted JB's & O/H spans whenever a farm/croft/cottage appears. The very end of our U/G lateral is two spans away, then it changes to multi-core(7 pairs) for the remaining half mile, with overheads to us & three remaining subscribers further along. (Two of them have told BT to "Stuff-it" & changed to 4G Vodaphone), after a similar 3 years of a multitude of faults. Me - I'm hanging in there just now.

                                                             Regards,    David
     
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tubaman

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Re: Questioning Openreach Engineers
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2020, 03:27:11 PM »

The OP says 2.5 miles.

Oh yes, I picked up the 2.5km from Black Sheep's post - oops!
 :)
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