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Author Topic: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?  (Read 940 times)

cancunia

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ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?
« on: December 04, 2020, 05:51:32 PM »

I've just been given a £300k 'quote' by BT under the Universal Service Obligation for upgrading my long line 3Mbps ADSL to FTTP. I don't need or want FTTP, I simply want something better that 3M, even 5 would be better.
I'm wondering if there are any technologies out there that can be used to increase the bandwith without a Full Fibre connection?
There's an All In One cabinet about 2 miles from my house that serves a group of houses near to the cabinet, my long line ADSL goes through the cabinet according to BT, so I'm wondering if an ADSL DSLAM could be installed in that cabinet or some kind of ADSL Loop Extender could be used in the the cabinet ot at the exchange.
Are BT still putting miniature fibre cabinets on top of poles ?
Any thoughts welcome?
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tubaman

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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2020, 05:55:03 PM »

I've just been given a £300k 'quote' by BT...

 :o - picks oneself up from the floor!
Is 4G an option where you live as £300k would pay for a few lifetimes worth of that?
 :)
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cancunia

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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2020, 05:59:53 PM »

:o - picks oneself up from the floor!
Is 4G an option where you live as £300k would pay for a few lifetimes worth of that?
 :)

Unfortunately the mobile signal is not usable indoors, I'm using VoWiFi which is in turn affected by the ADSL speed. 
I'm guessing that BT Openreach gave such a daft quote rather than go out and do a real survey as they expect it'll cost more than I'm prepared to pay. Apparently they are protected from having to disclose what work is involved when they quote.
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ejs

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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2020, 06:49:45 PM »

Have you considered getting a second ADSL line?

I think that for FTTPoD, you have to pay for them to go out and do a real survey.
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re0

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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2020, 07:27:49 PM »

Unfortunately the mobile signal is not usable indoors, I'm using VoWiFi which is in turn affected by the ADSL speed.
What about outdoors? Any mobile providers that have a coverage giving a decent speed? If so, could be viable to fork out a few hundred on an external antenna and a good modem/router.

Perhaps you could see if there are any alt nets covering your area? Or at least give us an indication to roughly where you are located?
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cancunia

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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2020, 08:37:49 AM »

Thanks for all the suggestions, I was somehow hoping that technology would have caught up with requirements for improved ADSL speeds on long lines.
As mentioned above, there is an All in One cab a couple of miles from my house, so I was hoping that some kind of repeater / booster / ADSL DSLAM could be installed into that cab. From what the Openreach engineer told me last year when he came to fix my line, the speed from the exchange to that cab is 8M & the cab is about half way between my house & the exchange, so a copper ADSL DSLAM in the cab onto my line would probably give me something approaching that speed. 
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ejs

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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2020, 09:24:06 AM »

An ADSL DSLAM in the cab wouldn't be allowed to perform any better than the VDSL2 DSLAM already in the cab due to the power cut back required to avoid the signals transmitted from the cab interfering with ADSL signals being sent from the exchange. It was trialled, but then they didn't want to do Long Reach VDSL2 because turning up the power transmitted from the cabs would have required stopping exchange based ADSL services on those cabs doing Long Reach VDSL2.
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Ronski

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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2020, 09:25:19 AM »

There is no such technology that BT/OR are deploying, that I'm aware of, they are now concentrating on FTTP.

You have various options, in no particular order.

Get a quote for FTTP on demand, you can get a free estimate, but will need to pay £250+vat for an accurate quotation. You may be able to get a voucher towards installation costs.
Bond more than one adsl line - Weaver on here has four slower lines than you have bonded.
Investigate external rooftop mobile reception
Investigate alt nets and wireless providers
Satellite broadband, although latency is high

If you post your location people may be able to give better answers.
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cancunia

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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2020, 10:06:02 AM »

Thanks for the clarifications above around the All in One cab & pole based DSLAM situation.

Bonding ADSL may be an option for QOS, but that does not give higher speeds AFAIK?  I've also heard that multiple ADSL connections on a single cable into a property may interfere with each other, crosstalk etc?
I'll track down the other thread mentioned about ADSL Bonding and have a read through.

I read elsewhere that 4G may be a solution offered under the USO. I have a rubbish mobile signal but an outside antenna may resolve that as it's just over the hill from Cadwell Park where there are some very big mobile masts. 
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Weaver

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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2020, 11:38:49 AM »

Hi cancunia,

I have four extremely long ADSL2 lines (7.3 km; 4.5 mi) which all sync at 3Mbps downstream / 500 Mbps upstream, apart from one which for some reason is under 400k upstream. I combine them using IP bonding to get a real 10.5 Mbps down / 1.18 Mbps up according to the Ookla speedtester  https://www.speedtest.net. The http://testmy.net speedtester claims 1.4 Mbps upstream.

This means that single downloads and uploads are around four times faster, although the result for upstream combined speed is not as good as for downstream.

Itís not cheap but the results are outstanding.

Take no notice of the point about crosstalk; there will be crosstalk with your neighboursí lines if not with your own, so the competitors might as well be your own lines.

You need a suitable ISP and a suitable router to combine the lines together for downstream and upstream respectively.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2020, 11:46:05 AM by Weaver »
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cancunia

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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2020, 11:45:43 AM »

Hi cancunia,

I have four extremely long ADSL2 lines (7.3 km; 4.5 mi) which all sync at 3Mbps downstream / 500 Mbps upstream, apart from one which for some reason is under 400k upstream. I combine them using IP bonding to get a real 10.5 Mbps down / 1.18 Mbps up according to the Ookla speedtester  https://www.speedtest.net. The http://testmy.net speedtester claims 1.4 Mbps upstream.

This means that single downloads and uploads are around four times faster, although the result for upstream combined speed is not as good as for downstream.

Itís not cheap but the results are outstanding.

Thanks for the info, looks very interesting. Can you give any info on how the IP bonding is achieved, is that something you did yourself, or do you pay for a service?
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Weaver

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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2020, 12:34:51 PM »

I use a router that speaks IP bonding. My ISP specifically supports line bonding as a service and if one line goes down they redirect the traffic to the other lines and my router does a similar thing in relation to upstream. Since my linesí upstream speeds are not equal, my router has been told by me how to split the traffic between the various lines; that is, what fraction to send to each according to individual speed values that I have given it. Regarding downstream, my ISP gets per-line speed values dynamically from BT and these change within a few seconds of the linesí sync speeds changing and the sync speeds are down-converted by being multiplied by a suitable number, something link 0.87 iirc; I use 0.884434 * 0.95 * sync_rate (for ADSL2) as my chosen IP throughout rate (ie including the cost of IP headers and all other overhead).

To answer some questions you had from before: BT did a trial some years ago in the Isle of Lewis (Eilean LeÚdhais) at Tolastadh fo Thuath where they put in an FTTC-type cabinet with long copper lines coming from it to the not that nearby houses. That contained LR-VDSL2 modems with a unique configuration, and it worked well, I believe, because (I assume) the tx power was high and there was no competition from old ADSL / ADSL2+ users, and I believe it worked well despite the fairly long distances from the houses to the LR-VDSL2 FTTC cab. However BT didnít extend this trial into a widespread rollout because of the problem of existing users need ing to all agree to upgrade to LR-VDSL2 service (unless they just changed it without peopleís agreement, as happened with ADSL Max), and certainly would need to upgrade their modems to handle LR-VDSL2 in some cases. I seem to remember that it was discussed in an old thread here somewhere, but memory fails me. Another reason why it wasnít followed up my be that by then BT knew they were going to replace absolutely everything with FTTP at some point in the not incredibly distant future.

By the way, you donít need four lines; bonding two together would be better than bonding four (even more efficient still), as in my experience the efficiency regarding upstream goes down a lot when you go from three lines to four - three lines or fewer has very good results. Having said that regarding downstream, the combined downstream results even for four lines are very good still, I feel. I wrote a thread about my combined efficiency some time back, with many many numbers in it. ;)

I pay my ISP for IP-only (no voice) service on each line and then on top of that I pay a variable amount for download by total bytes downloaded but other charging schemes are available (I donít understand all the options; itís very confusing). Uploads are free (effectively), although with TCP an upload involves a certain small amount of return ACK (ie downstream) traffic. So the costs are a modest amount fixed per each line and a variable amount according to the amount you have downloaded each month. I do a lot of large downloads in the middle of the night (02:00-05:59 BST; ie 01:00-04:59 during BST summer time) because at that time downloading 1 TB [!] costs £3.90 (+VAT? who knows)

Since I have no voice service I have tried VoIP but it didnít work too well because of the low upstream speed I think, or because of the dissimilar upstream speeds, so instead I have configured things using my ISPís control panel (at clueless.aa.net.uk) so that VoIP coming into our phone number is redirected to my wifeís EE mobile phone. We have good 4G here, because despite the remote location (once you get out of the village, in which we are the northernmost house, onto the moor you can go 3.5 miles approx without seeing another house or wall or hedge or fence or even tree. And across the glen, in direct line of sight, we have the 4G basestation looking right at us.

One weird thing, discussed elsewhere, about my combined upstream is that it used to be (reported!) as a slightly higher 1.3 Mbps instead of the current 1.15-1.18 Mbps at times but not too long ago I was getting a reported combined result of 1.55 Mbps upstream. It could be or maybe should be due to changes in the speedtestersí code.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2020, 12:39:41 PM by Weaver »
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Ronski

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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2020, 12:41:51 PM »

Thanks for the clarifications above around the All in One cab & pole based DSLAM situation.

Bonding ADSL may be an option for QOS, but that does not give higher speeds AFAIK?  I've also heard that multiple ADSL connections on a single cable into a property may interfere with each other, crosstalk etc?
I'll track down the other thread mentioned about ADSL Bonding and have a read through.

I read elsewhere that 4G may be a solution offered under the USO. I have a rubbish mobile signal but an outside antenna may resolve that as it's just over the hill from Cadwell Park where there are some very big mobile masts.

Weaver uses https://support.aa.net.uk/Category:Bonding

What's your 4G reception like from an upstairs window in the direction of your nearest suitable mast. As an experiment you could get PAYG sims from the other networks and try them presuming you have an unlocked phone.

ETA. To add to Weaver post, there's more info on LR VDSL here https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2018/04/openreach-start-removing-lr-vdsl-broadband-from-uk-trial-areas.html
« Last Edit: December 05, 2020, 12:46:53 PM by Ronski »
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Weaver

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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2020, 12:50:57 PM »

Costs for traffic are not cheap and if you do a lot of downloads in the office daytime hours 09:00-18:00 then itís really expensive and so in that case you would probably want a Ďquotaí charging scheme where you buy a large amount of download for a modest amount per month, but Iím not using that charging scheme and my memory has failed me you would have to ask for details.

The whole thing is not cheap, but compared to £300k is bargain of the century. My copper lines are very cheap per line. My router is around £660 iirc so not domestic kit pricing, but itís a superb unit which I would have chosen anyway even if I was not doing IP bonding. Second hand units can be bought on ebay for cheap money but I think itís a false economy because buying a new one gives you unlimited free support and configuration for your setup. I use two really old ZyXEL WAPs for wireless LAN service and they were incredibly expensive when I bought them many many moons ago (around £400 each) but much more modern WAPs are available now.
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Weaver

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Re: ADSL Loop Extender / ADSL DSLAM in All in One Cab?
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2020, 12:58:59 PM »

I am not at all keen on 4G. I have thought about going 4G a lot over the years. I would dissuade you from going that way for a number of reasons that I wonít repeat here once again - see my old threads, which someone may help us to track down. Dreadful latency, never knowing what your speed is going to be, because of contention with neighbours and unreliability- our 4G occasionally disappears for a couple of days, not often but too much for me as `i require an ultra-reliable service.

I have 4G data SIMs in my ipads that have real (ie global static routable) IPv4 addresses associated with them. I have an emergency portable 4G router too.

With two or especially three DSL lines bonded together the reliability should be almost 100% and since I also have 3G failover backup (seamless, as best as I can arrange it, switchover aka Ďfailoverí to backup 3G) then my reliability is for all intents and purposes 100% ie no downtime. If I get my whole UPS system and petrol generator sorted for emergence power supply in the event of mains power failure then it should be really close to 100%; power cuts are very infrequent. Lightning strikes are the biggest threat to my reliability and to my wallet.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2020, 01:01:06 PM by Weaver »
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