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Author Topic: Draytek Vigor 166 G.fast Modem / Router Review  (Read 57923 times)

Guest_1

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Re: Draytek Vigor 166 G.fast Modem / Router Review
« Reply #225 on: January 27, 2021, 07:22:39 AM »

My thoughts... I'll try cover all your points.

The DLM doesn't ever change from G.INP to interleaving.
G.INP is the default on Huawei cabinets.
G.INP is now retained after a DLM reset or ISP migration (recent change).

New activations on Huawei cabinets have Interleaving applied for 2 days then G.INP is applied instead. That may also have changed and G.INP might even be applied immediately.

The Interleaving depth is usually 4 or 8 with G.INP applied.
It's only in the hundreds/thousands if INP/interleaving is applied instead.

The loss of throughput is due to the DLM increasing the target SNRM (noise margin).
The default target is 6dB down and up.
It's always 6dB on the upstream.
It's always 6dB on the downstream on ECI cabinets (due to no completed G.INP rollout).
If a line with G.INP in a Huawei cabinet is stable enough and has low enough errors the DLM lowers the target downstream SNRM to 5, 4 or 3dB, in 1dB steps.

There's 3 users in this thread with the Vigor 166 on VDSL2  who have had the DLM increase the target SNRM since connecting the Draytek.
This is due to an increase in errors. With the Draytek connected the DLM would never have lowered the target from 6dB in the 1st place.
At least 1 of the lines have gone from 3db to 4db to 5db all the way back to 6dB.
That's a considerable drop in stability compared to the users previous modem.

That's why having the error counters fixed is so important.
It's impossible to tell how stable the chipset is or how good/poor it is performing without being able to see the stats.
It's impossible to tell if each new firmware revision improves performance or not.

Well that's a shame.
I'm very interested in seeing the full stats in the hope of seeing what's going on that's making the DLM so harsh.

It's a shame as the Vigor 130 is rock solid and lines regularly drop to 3dB using it.

I wonder if the Vigor 165 suffers the same 0 errors bug.
So far my Google search has been futile.

  Great post I do like to have people point out when I'm wrong its how we learn after all. However I'm still sure interleaving would have been applied with a 10mb drop. After all G.inp which I really have not read up that much on so my knowledge is a tad lacking, mainly because my cab fails to use it, would apply interleaving to stabilise the line. G.inp (from my limited knowledge) is used to control low levels of errors without out the need to drop throughput I believed.

 On my ECI cab I have gone from Fastpath level interleaving level 1 on the downstream to a interleaving depth 1087 with a 10Mb drop, after a initial gain of 3Mbps on the first day from 51Mbps to 53Mbps. So I still think Interleaving would have been applied with so many errors, although we cant see them we can assume they must be there and on the downstream, as my upstream is Fastpath level 1 still.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 07:25:32 AM by Guest_1 »
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bkehoe

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Re: Draytek Vigor 166 G.fast Modem / Router Review
« Reply #226 on: January 27, 2021, 10:02:24 AM »

  Great post I do like to have people point out when I'm wrong its how we learn after all. However I'm still sure interleaving would have been applied with a 10mb drop. After all G.inp which I really have not read up that much on so my knowledge is a tad lacking, mainly because my cab fails to use it, would apply interleaving to stabilise the line. G.inp (from my limited knowledge) is used to control low levels of errors without out the need to drop throughput I believed.

 On my ECI cab I have gone from Fastpath level interleaving level 1 on the downstream to a interleaving depth 1087 with a 10Mb drop, after a initial gain of 3Mbps on the first day from 51Mbps to 53Mbps. So I still think Interleaving would have been applied with so many errors, although we cant see them we can assume they must be there and on the downstream, as my upstream is Fastpath level 1 still.


Applying Interleaving would presumably be DLMs next step after increasing the target SNR if errors are still above its thresholds. It's just working back the normal way it progresses in the same steps.
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underzone

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Re: Draytek Vigor 166 G.fast Modem / Router Review
« Reply #227 on: January 27, 2021, 10:55:09 AM »

Maybe Draytek are hiding the detailed stats on purpose.

They must have spent some time testing the device before releasing it.
Hiding the stats may mask the poor performance of the device.
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Robbie

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Re: Draytek Vigor 166 G.fast Modem / Router Review
« Reply #228 on: January 27, 2021, 08:51:05 PM »

The default target is 6dB down and up.
It's always 6dB on the upstream.
It's always 6dB on the downstream on ECI cabinets (due to no completed G.INP rollout).

A good while back they changed from a default target of 6dB on ECI cabs to 5dB.  A very small bonus when it was (somewhat belatedly) rolled-out.

Code: [Select]
> v s

  ---------------------- ATU-R Info (hw: annex A, f/w: annex A/B/C) -----------
   Running Mode            :      17A       State                : SHOWTIME
   DS Actual Rate          : 79995000 bps   US Actual Rate       : 20000000 bps
   DS Attainable Rate      : 89316472 bps   US Attainable Rate   : 22633768 bps
   DS Path Mode            :        Fast    US Path Mode         :        Fast
   DS Interleave Depth     :        1       US Interleave Depth  :        1
   NE Current Attenuation  :       10 dB    Cur SNR Margin       :        5  dB
   DS actual PSD           :    -1.-7 dB    US actual PSD        :    -1.-6  dB
   NE CRC Count            :        0       FE CRC Count         :      302
   NE ES Count             :        0       FE  ES Count         :       72
   Xdsl Reset Times        :        0       Xdsl Link  Times     :        2
   ITU Version[0]          : fe004452       ITU Version[1]       : 41590000
   VDSL Firmware Version   : 05-07-09-0F-01-07   [with Vectoring support]
   Power Management Mode   : DSL_G997_PMS_L0
   Test Mode               : DISABLE
  -------------------------------- ATU-C Info ---------------------------------
   Far Current Attenuation :       10 dB    Far SNR Margin       :        6  dB
   CO ITU Version[0]       : b5004946       CO ITU Version[1]    : 544eb206
   DSLAM CHIPSET VENDOR    : < IFTN >
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Guest_1

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Re: Draytek Vigor 166 G.fast Modem / Router Review
« Reply #229 on: January 28, 2021, 08:05:35 AM »

I am using my 166 in VDSL mode and haven't experienced the issues @Killhippie and @omegapoint are reporting. I've attached screenshots from the thinkbroadband tester - is there any chance you might have got a defective unit?
Well my line overnight adjusted and I now have 52Mbps and my ping of 7ms back using the release candidate firmware and using a MTU of 1500 (my line does not support baby Jumbo frames so 1508 wasn't really needed) and my routers will only allow a MTU of 1492.  :)
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omegapoint

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Re: Draytek Vigor 166 G.fast Modem / Router Review
« Reply #230 on: January 28, 2021, 08:59:34 PM »

Well my line overnight adjusted and I now have 52Mbps and my ping of 7ms back using the release candidate firmware and using a MTU of 1500 (my line does not support baby Jumbo frames so 1508 wasn't really needed) and my routers will only allow a MTU of 1492.  :)

Sounds promising. I wasn't sent the RC firmware so my 166 is still sitting unplugged until something stable is released

For reference, it took my line a full week to go to back a SNR of 4 (from 5) after my 130 was back in place, still waiting to be back to 3.
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j0hn

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Re: Draytek Vigor 166 G.fast Modem / Router Review
« Reply #231 on: January 28, 2021, 09:32:21 PM »

A good while back they changed from a default target of 6dB on ECI cabs to 5dB.  A very small bonus when it was (somewhat belatedly) rolled-out.

Code: [Select]
> v s

  ---------------------- ATU-R Info (hw: annex A, f/w: annex A/B/C) -----------
   Running Mode            :      17A       State                : SHOWTIME
   DS Actual Rate          : 79995000 bps   US Actual Rate       : 20000000 bps
   DS Attainable Rate      : 89316472 bps   US Attainable Rate   : 22633768 bps
   DS Path Mode            :        Fast    US Path Mode         :        Fast
   DS Interleave Depth     :        1       US Interleave Depth  :        1
   NE Current Attenuation  :       10 dB    Cur SNR Margin       :        5  dB
   DS actual PSD           :    -1.-7 dB    US actual PSD        :    -1.-6  dB
   NE CRC Count            :        0       FE CRC Count         :      302
   NE ES Count             :        0       FE  ES Count         :       72
   Xdsl Reset Times        :        0       Xdsl Link  Times     :        2
   ITU Version[0]          : fe004452       ITU Version[1]       : 41590000
   VDSL Firmware Version   : 05-07-09-0F-01-07   [with Vectoring support]
   Power Management Mode   : DSL_G997_PMS_L0
   Test Mode               : DISABLE
  -------------------------------- ATU-C Info ---------------------------------
   Far Current Attenuation :       10 dB    Far SNR Margin       :        6  dB
   CO ITU Version[0]       : b5004946       CO ITU Version[1]    : 544eb206
   DSLAM CHIPSET VENDOR    : < IFTN >

The Upstream target SNRM is 6dB on all FTTC/VDSL2 lines on all cabinets.

A copy of SIN 498

https://www.cvf.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/content/dam/cpportal/public/images-and-documents/home/help-and-support/sins/documents/SIN_498_v7.7_apr_2020.pdf

Specifically Asked A.1.1

Quote
Parameter
Downstream Target Noise Margin 6dB
Upstream Target Noise Margin 6dB

Section 1.2.2 covers the charges to Downstream noise margin

Quote
1.2.2  VDSL2 noise margins Currently  the default  target  downstream noise margin is set to 6dB.   From  March 2017 the  target  downstream noise  margin shall  be  set to either 3, 4, 5 or  6dB  –  the actual value shall  be  determined by  the  Dynamic  Line Management (DLM) algorithm based on line  stability.   

If you got your ISP to run a GEA test it would confirm a 6dB target.

Many lines run off target for multiple reasons.
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j0hn

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Re: Draytek Vigor 166 G.fast Modem / Router Review
« Reply #232 on: January 28, 2021, 09:54:05 PM »

  Great post I do like to have people point out when I'm wrong its how we learn after all. However I'm still sure interleaving would have been applied with a 10mb drop. After all G.inp which I really have not read up that much on so my knowledge is a tad lacking, mainly because my cab fails to use it, would apply interleaving to stabilise the line. G.inp (from my limited knowledge) is used to control low levels of errors without out the need to drop throughput I believed.

 On my ECI cab I have gone from Fastpath level interleaving level 1 on the downstream to a interleaving depth 1087 with a 10Mb drop, after a initial gain of 3Mbps on the first day from 51Mbps to 53Mbps. So I still think Interleaving would have been applied with so many errors, although we cant see them we can assume they must be there and on the downstream, as my upstream is Fastpath level 1 still.

Interleaving isn't by the Huawei DLM.
All lines with modems that are capable of using G.INP, use it.

The DLM has put the line on a 6dB target likely with Retransmission High.
That's the highest target with the highest error protection.


Applying Interleaving would presumably be DLMs next step after increasing the target SNR if errors are still above its thresholds. It's just working back the normal way it progresses in the same steps.

It is indeed working back but it won't go to Interleaving.
It will sit stable on 6dB Retx High.

Should the chipset improve performance or the user switches back to the previous modem then the DLM should start working back down the targets and switch to Retx Low.
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Guest_1

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Re: Draytek Vigor 166 G.fast Modem / Router Review
« Reply #233 on: January 30, 2021, 08:48:15 AM »

Interleaving isn't by the Huawei DLM.
All lines with modems that are capable of using G.INP, use it.
The cab has to support G.inp. ECI cabs have no vectoring or G.inp support, and OR have been trying to get G.inp working on ECI cabs for years. Huawei cabs use G.inp as it was part of a firmware update to the cabs as the line cards supported both technologies, OR has tried and failed to get G.inp working on ECI cabs, as you can see read in the link below. If the cab does not support G.inp you wont get G.inp even if your modem does support it so the ECI cabs wont use G.inp just because the Vigor does alas.

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/08/openreach-g-inp-trial-on-eci-fttc-broadband-lines-hits-snag.html
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mszune

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Re: Draytek Vigor 166 G.fast Modem / Router Review
« Reply #234 on: January 30, 2021, 10:32:09 AM »

Hi all,
I'm new to this forum so be kind  :)
anyways here's my question I purchased the vigor 166 as my vigor 130 was playing up, so having read Robbie's review I wanted to access the 166 to update to the new 4.1.1_BT firmware as the 4.0.5_BT firmware was allegedly buggy, however having connected the 166 directly to my laptop I have failed miserably to access the 166 web login page.
The manual states a web address of 192.168.2.1 identical to my 130 so naturally I didnt think there was going to be an issue, however having attempted all possible IP addreses I decided to just swap out the 166 in place of the 130 thinkng I could access it like my 130 once it was connected to my network, although still no joy  :no:
any help would be much appreciated -TIA 
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j0hn

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Re: Draytek Vigor 166 G.fast Modem / Router Review
« Reply #235 on: January 30, 2021, 11:07:11 AM »

The cab has to support G.inp. ECI cabs have no vectoring or G.inp support, and OR have been trying to get G.inp working on ECI cabs for years. Huawei cabs use G.inp as it was part of a firmware update to the cabs as the line cards supported both technologies, OR has tried and failed to get G.inp working on ECI cabs, as you can see read in the link below. If the cab does not support G.inp you wont get G.inp even if your modem does support it so the ECI cabs wont use G.inp just because the Vigor does alas.

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/08/openreach-g-inp-trial-on-eci-fttc-broadband-lines-hits-snag.html

I'm aware of that...

Quote from: j0hn
Interleaving isn't by the Huawei DLM.

I did write "Huawei" cabinets, "Huawei" lines and "Huawei" DLM in about 5 of my previous posts.

I was also quite specific when I mentioned that the DLM only lowers the target SNRM on Huawei lines and only if G.INP is enabled.

I only made the point that the 166 obviously has some high error counters as 3 users have had the DLM increase their SNRM targets. 1 went all the way from 3dB to 6dB.

Threads gone way off topic.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2021, 11:16:45 AM by j0hn »
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hushcoden

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Re: Draytek Vigor 166 G.fast Modem / Router Review
« Reply #236 on: January 30, 2021, 11:15:34 AM »

Hi all,
I'm new to this forum so be kind  :)
anyways here's my question I purchased the vigor 166 as my vigor 130 was playing up, so having read Robbie's review I wanted to access the 166 to update to the new 4.1.1_BT firmware as the 4.0.5_BT firmware was allegedly buggy, however having connected the 166 directly to my laptop I have failed miserably to access the 166 web login page.
The manual states a web address of 192.168.2.1 identical to my 130 so naturally I didnt think there was going to be an issue, however having attempted all possible IP addreses I decided to just swap out the 166 in place of the 130 thinkng I could access it like my 130 once it was connected to my network, although still no joy  :no:
any help would be much appreciated -TIA
Have you tried to assign a static IP address - i.e. 192.168.2.10 - to your laptop LAN port ?
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smallal

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Re: Draytek Vigor 166 G.fast Modem / Router Review
« Reply #237 on: January 30, 2021, 12:39:07 PM »

Hi all,
I'm new to this forum so be kind  :)
anyways here's my question I purchased the vigor 166 as my vigor 130 was playing up, so having read Robbie's review I wanted to access the 166 to update to the new 4.1.1_BT firmware as the 4.0.5_BT firmware was allegedly buggy, however having connected the 166 directly to my laptop I have failed miserably to access the 166 web login page.
The manual states a web address of 192.168.2.1 identical to my 130 so naturally I didnt think there was going to be an issue, however having attempted all possible IP addreses I decided to just swap out the 166 in place of the 130 thinkng I could access it like my 130 once it was connected to my network, although still no joy  :no:
any help would be much appreciated -TIA
I don't think any units shipped with 4.0.5_BT firmware, despite what's printed on the box!
Mine certainly arrived with 4.1.1_BT installed, although the box said 4.0.5_BT
If you need more help with setting the Static IP read this: https://pureinfotech.com/set-static-ip-address-windows-10/#static_ip_controlpanel_windows10
Connect directly between laptop & modem with cable. The 3 settings you need to enter are:
IP address 192.168.2.10
subnet mask 255.255.255.0
Default gateway 192.168.2.1
Once saved open a web search & type 192.168.2.1 into the address box to get to the log-on page.
(One other point, if you switch it from MODEM to ROUTER mode the default for DHCP seems to be OFF (which is unusual) it needs to be ON for most people)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2021, 04:58:11 PM by smallal »
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DANNYG

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Re: Draytek Vigor 166 G.fast Modem / Router Review
« Reply #238 on: January 30, 2021, 09:36:41 PM »

 :thumbs:Great review many thanks.

JBrooks

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Re: Draytek Vigor 166 G.fast Modem / Router Review
« Reply #239 on: February 01, 2021, 08:26:02 PM »

Can someone tell me if the Vigor 166 Gen 1 will work then properly on a UK g.fast line (Zen Internet) and if it is better than what the Openreach modem (MT992?) would do? Thanks.
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