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Author Topic: Router moved to master socket results in higher es  (Read 1200 times)

Brickmortar

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Router moved to master socket results in higher es
« on: September 22, 2020, 03:50:24 AM »

Pretty sure this is an internal rfi problem.

I currently live in a detached 2 story 4 bedroom house, with the desire to get the most out of the line adsl2+(fttc is available) that barely synced above 10.3mb at 6db and 11.7mb at 3db, i decided to move the router from the upstairs rear bedroom to the master socket at our front door (these are the two farthest rooms apart) and off the 6 core been in the house since the 80's extension.

Move the router down stairs and install cat6 back to bedroom lots of fun involving running a cable in the loft down a service shaft and under the ground floor (wasnt allowed to chase the walls), the second change (this might be the problem)was a 45amp switch for the electric shower (bathroom is next to front door) was switched for a cooker type one with a 13amp plug which resided next to the master socket to power the router.

So router will sync at 10477 at 6db and 11840 at 3db in new location, fantastic what a waste of time was my first thought, so few days go by and i checked router stats at this point i realise my es in the new location are terrible.

With the router upstairs is would get roughly 100es a day at 6db and about 300 at 3db

With the router downstairs i was now getting 200+ at 6db and 900+ at 3db

Not particularly happy on the es front i decide to move the router again upstairs and use the new ethernet link as my adsl extension

With the router upstairs now over cat6 get pretty much and same sync at 6db (3db not tested) as downstairs but my es has returned to about 100 es a day

So something is clearly causing the extra es and its not the 100kb increase in sync at the target margins.

So far i have tried for a few hours disconnecting the wireless phone and powering off the base station, plus turning off nearby wall wart chargers this had zero impact on es, also there is no spike in es while electric shower is in use. (hardly a comprehensive list)

Anyone got some suggestions where this source of es is coming from that doesnt seem to be getting picked up by my extensions?

also tomorrow will upload some bonus pictures of my horrible QLN and bit loading, and why i dont have fttc

 
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jelv

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Re: Router moved to master socket results in higher es
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2020, 09:22:28 AM »

Is the phone socket upstairs still in use? If so does it still have a filter in it? Have you tried using the test socket which should disconnect the wiring to the upstairs socket.
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Weaver

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Re: Router moved to master socket results in higher es
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2020, 09:25:16 AM »

Welcome to the forum, Brickmortar !  :)

I don’t have any suggestions about the source of RFI, I’m afraid. I don’t have any experience of such.

One or two ‘have you considered’s just in case they might be helpful. Apologies if not relevant or blooming obvious.

Is it fair to say that where your master socket is is really awkward? I called BT some years back and booked a ‘change point of entry’ and had a new clean drop cable run directly from the outside straight into a master socket upstairs in my office, the place where I wanted the router to be.

Second thought: have you thought of having a separate modem and router? Because that then gives you more freedom of placement if the router; modem should be right by the master socket and ethernet cable goes to the router which can be anywhere.

Last thought: if you are using wireless, would it help you to have a separate  wireless access point? Again, freedom of placement which would give you the best coverage.
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Brickmortar

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Re: Router moved to master socket results in higher es
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2020, 12:37:58 PM »

Thanks for the reply's.

Welcome to the forum, Brickmortar !  :)

Is it fair to say that where your master socket is is really awkward? I called BT some years back and booked a ‘change point of entry’ and had a new clean drop cable run directly from the outside straight into a master socket upstairs in my office, the place where I wanted the router to be.

Second thought: have you thought of having a separate modem and router? Because that then gives you more freedom of placement if the router; modem should be right by the master socket and ethernet cable goes to the router which can be anywhere.


Nothing particularly wrong with the location of the master socket and wifi coverage is fine with the router in either locations, its underground in to the house so not easily moved anyway.

Currently using a 8800nlv1 but have a few others dg834v1 and some belkin, not greatly keen on using modem + router or wifi access point have in the past used setups like this and the wifi part of the network would drop out randomly every few days and have to be restarted.

Is the phone socket upstairs still in use? If so does it still have a filter in it? Have you tried using the test socket which should disconnect the wiring to the upstairs socket.

Extension cabling to upstairs socket was disconnected when i moved the router downstairs, the master socket has a year old NTE5a that bt put in after a recent line fault, it currently has a mk3 faceplate which i installed. i have tried nte5a + micro filter and mk3 faceplate both have the same amount of es, i havent tried the test socket but have no reason to believe this is the source of es since i have returned my router back upstairs with the adsl running across the cat6 installed and es rate drops back down.
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PhilipD

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Re: Router moved to master socket results in higher es
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2020, 12:39:21 PM »

Hi

Welcome to the forum.

First of all your ES are negligible, 100 or 300 not worth worrying about.

xDSL is very complex and we aren't always aware of the whole picture.  I suspect nearer the master socket you are getting more frequencies in use higher up the scale because it is a slightly better connection for attenuation and/or slightly lower noise.  However these higher frequencies run with more errors, you might get a bit more sync speed and along with that comes more errors.  If the errors are bad enough on these higher frequencies then bit swapping will likely render them unusable and they will get turned off by the modem, this might see your ES fall after a day or so being connected, it may not of course because you still have the higher sync rate.

xDSL is designed to have errors, it is the only way you can push so much data over decades old analogue telephone wire by accepting a certain level of errors, typically these errors are corrected and hidden from you further up the network stack.  Errors are part and parcel of xDSL, you could run with no errors ever but your sync rate might have to be 100Kb/sec to achieve that!

All sorts of other things can come into play as well relating to RF which is a law unto itself.  Shortening or making longer the line, even by just a few metres can make a difference to how the signal reflects back down the wire causing more or less constructive interference.  Your telephone line is also one big antenna, and making it a bit shorter might make it a better antenna for picking up RF noise in your locality and give you something worse, the opposite of what you might think by shortening the line length.

So overall nothing to worry about I would say, and what you describe happening is simply part and parcel of the dark art of RF and xDSL.

Regards

Phil
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Weaver

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Re: Router moved to master socket results in higher es
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2020, 12:51:41 PM »

@Brickmortar - I hear you. Separate multi-box kit doesn’t have to be failure prone though, it sent an inherent consequence of that choice. It is of course up to you; use what works for you. It’s just that you have options.
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Brickmortar

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Re: Router moved to master socket results in higher es
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2020, 03:33:57 PM »

The es are a worry my line currently has interleaving depth on the downstream at 64 giving an additional 12ms delay. i will have to do some more testing to see if its an internal or external source.

Here are the graphs from dslstats

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4candles

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Re: Router moved to master socket results in higher es
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2020, 10:00:10 PM »

Quote from: Brickmortar link=topic=25182.msg422467#msg422467 da...te=1600743024
...horrible QLN and bit loading...
It's surely not coincidence that the frequencies with the big spikes in the QLN, when multiplied by the bin width of 4.3125kHz, correspond to the following radio stations:

198kHz     Radio 4
810kHz     Radio Scotland
909kHz     Radio 5 Live
1089kHz   Talk Sport
1215kHz   Virgin
1449kHz   Radio 4
1548kHz   Various, but probably Forth 2 

Possibly on the east side of Scotland?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2020, 10:06:47 PM by 4candles »
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Brickmortar

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Re: Router moved to master socket results in higher es
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2020, 11:20:16 PM »

Close a place called Denny very central in the central belt unsurprising there are antennas for tv/radio on the horizon south of our house. i had googled the frequency's before never managed to make that connection.
 
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4candles

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Re: Router moved to master socket results in higher es
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2020, 01:18:22 PM »

That'll be Westerglen, 4¾ miles south east of Denny.
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