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Author Topic: FTTC performance, possibly ISP migration  (Read 663 times)

mandelbug

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FTTC performance, possibly ISP migration
« on: September 11, 2020, 06:44:45 PM »

I am currently on Vodafone and have been for a couple of years now. Over those years, I have had a lot of issues with the phone line (BT have sent out about 5 engineers within a 1 year period). It looks like the last one who attended finally managed to resolve the issue by replacing the cable from pole to premises. My line has been so problematic that I have a permanent 15% discount applied (making it £18/pm inc line rental) so very cheap.

My gripe with VF was that they would not complain to Openreach, and they do not seem to have any relationship with them. I was complaining to them as a VF customer but they would not complain to OR as an OR customer.

With the new cable though my line appears to have stabalised. My line is a rubbish line, I am about 1 mile from the green cabinet (due north) which is then 1 mile from the exchange (due SW). As a result, the BT Wholesale checker gives the following stats:

Clean DL High 18.5, Low 11.4 UL High 1.3, Low 1.1, Handback 8.8 (VF have min as 7.3)
Dirty DL High 18.2, Low 10 UL 1.3-1.1 Handback 6.5

Best performance of my line that I have seen is 15Mbps which is fine it's all it can do after all. I would be happy with that (or at least as happy as I can be without FTTP). Max observed rate is 13.09 which was on 13/06.

Since my line has become stable, I have removed the VF hub and replaced it with a DrayTek Vigor 130. I have altered the SNR margin and in the stats it indicates I should be able to get a 15ish Mbps connection. I am currently connected at 1139900 and it seems to be a hard limit. DLM hasn't changed anything despite the DrayTek being in place for 2 months and SNR change 4 weeks ago. I have tried powering off the route for 45 minutes to force a DLM profile reset but this hasn't made any difference. I have tried to get VF to reset the DLM profile, even highlighting the article https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.p...each-fttc-broadband-dlm-profiles-arrives.html to them indicating it can be done. But because my line is above the minimum guaranteed speed they won't/can't do it.

OR won't help via Twitter as quite rightly, I am not their customer (VF is). I have looked at plusnet as the next cheapest option for Broadband, they seem to have a good customer service aspect to them. Does anyone have any recommendations on either how to get VF to reset my DLM profile, or whether it would be worth moving to plusnet? Any suggestions for other ISPs? I do have a static IP as well that I make use of in Firewall rules for remote hosting. I would like to maintain a static IP (appreciate it will be different with a new supplier)

Stats from my Vigor 130:
Vigor> show status
System Uptime:506:41:31
LAN Status
Primary DNS:8.8.8.8           Secondary DNS:8.8.4.4
IP Address:192.168.7.1        Tx Rate:458348666    Rx Rate:726578105

WAN 1 Status: Disconnected
Enable:Yes       Line:xDSL        Name:
Mode:Static IP   Up Time:0:00:00     IP:0.0.0.0        GW IP:0.0.0.0
TX Packets:0          TX Rate:0   RX Packets:0          RX Rate:0

WAN 2 Status: Disconnected
Enable:Yes       Line:Ethernet    Name:
Mode:---         Up Time:0:00:00     IP:---            GW IP:---
TX Packets:0          TX Rate:0   RX Packets:0          RX Rate:0

VDSL Information:      VDSL Firmware Version:05-07-06-0D-01-07
Mode:17A               State:SHOWTIME   TX Block:0     RX Block:0
Corrected Blocks:3167  Uncorrected Blocks:357
UP Speed:1153000    Down Speed:11399000   SNR Margin:6   Loop Att.:32


Vigor> vdsl status
  ---------------------- ATU-R Info (hw: annex A, f/w: annex A/B/C) -----------
   Running Mode            :      17A       State                : SHOWTIME
   DS Actual Rate          : 11399000 bps   US Actual Rate       :  1153000 bps
   DS Attainable Rate      : 15110692 bps   US Attainable Rate   :  1153000 bps
   DS Path Mode            :        Fast    US Path Mode         :        Fast
   DS Interleave Depth     :        1       US Interleave Depth  :        1
   NE Current Attenuation  :       32 dB    Cur SNR Margin       :        6  dB
   DS actual PSD           :    12. 5 dB    US actual PSD        :     8. 0  dB
   NE CRC Count            :      357       FE CRC Count         :     3167
   NE ES Count             :      264       FE  ES Count         :     3023
   Xdsl Reset Times        :        0       Xdsl Link  Times     :        1
   ITU Version[0]          : fe004452       ITU Version[1]       : 41590000
   VDSL Firmware Version   : 05-07-06-0D-01-07   [with Vectoring support]
   Power Management Mode   : DSL_G997_PMS_L0
   Test Mode               : DISABLE
  -------------------------------- ATU-C Info ---------------------------------
   Far Current Attenuation :       14 dB    Far SNR Margin       :        6  dB
   CO ITU Version[0]       : b5004244       CO ITU Version[1]    : 434da4a1
   DSLAM CHIPSET VENDOR    : < BDCM >


Is there anything I can do from my side at all? I looked at AAISP but the cost/cap is a bit much to swallow. I am considering Uno as an option, or possibly TalkTalk Business (consumer was Baaaad last time I dealt with them) as options. I have been reading so much about various aspects of this I feel I am doing circles. I think if I could get closer to 15Mbps I'd be happy, then it's just waiting until 2025 for FTTP

Thanks in advance
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burakkucat

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Re: FTTC performance, possibly ISP migration
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2020, 10:19:14 PM »

Welcome to the Kitz forum.  :)

Having read through your story and the current statistics, I have a question as a result of seeing the very last line --

DSLAM CHIPSET VENDOR    : < BDCM >

Have you considered experimenting with a modem which uses a Broadcom chipset, rather than the Draytek?

All circuits behave differently. What is good for one may not necessarily be so for another. I have never had a successful experience with modems using a Lantiq chipset (such as Draytek).

Just one other point. You are clearly using a multi-box set-up and it appears some confusion has arisen. Earlier you mentioned --

Quote
I have tried powering off the route for 45 minutes to force a DLM profile reset but this hasn't made any difference.

I'm reading your mention of "route" as "router" but performing the above will not "force a DLM profile reset".

The DLM process operates at the VDSL2 level, on the circuit between the VTU-C (the cabinet DSLAM) and the VTU-R (your modem, the Vigor 130). I.e. on the metallic pathway in Openreach's domain. A DLM reset (a circuit re-calc, to use Openreach-speak) can only be initiated by Openreach.
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foxtrot_yankee

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Re: FTTC performance, possibly ISP migration
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2020, 10:41:12 PM »

I feel your pain with Vodafone. I was a customer for theirs for the past 3 years. Any time there was a fault, trying to get through to someone competent in their customer services was impossible. I have finally had enough after seeing DLM set me on interleaving and capping me at 25/10, with no sign of improvement and taken the step to move to BT, which will be activated this coming Tuesday, plus I've ordered a second line through A&A.

I can only recommend you move to another ISP, any ISP, than Vodafone. They are the absolute pits.
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mandelbug

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Re: FTTC performance, possibly ISP migration
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2020, 08:59:16 AM »

Thank you burakkucat, I will take a look at a Broadcom chipset see what I can find. I could have sworn I'd read that it was a broadcom somewhere. But I've read so much stuff I don't know any more.

Yes, I apologies, it was meant to be router/modem. I will blame fat fingers.

foxtrox_yankee: I will do some digging on TT Business. Don't think I can bring myself to use their consumer service.
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gt94sss2

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Re: FTTC performance, possibly ISP migration
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2020, 01:20:51 PM »

Quote
I have altered the SNR margin

What do you mean by this? If it's what I think, I don't believe that works on Huawei DSLAMs and you may be stopping Openreach lowering the SNR themselves
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 01:28:08 PM by gt94sss2 »
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: FTTC performance, possibly ISP migration
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2020, 01:37:07 PM »

What do you mean by this? If it's what I think, I don't believe that works on Huawei DSLAMs and you may be stopping Openreach lowering the SNR themselves

I was going to say, it looks like the line is performing at maximum short of DLM deciding to grace it with a 3dB SNRm.  Forcing it lower manually I suspect risks banding the line, assuming it works at all.
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mandelbug

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Re: FTTC performance, possibly ISP migration
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2020, 11:50:35 AM »

I believe I am on a Broadcom cabinet which this should work on

I read a topic on Overclockers and tried the command

Code: [Select]
vdsl snr -50
just to see if things would improve, my 'Attainable Rate' did jump up after running this and line has been stable. The plan was to review this if anything changed

I am just looking at a Billion 8800NL which seem to be well regarded Broadcom chipset devices. The original white one not the R2.
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gt94sss2

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Re: FTTC performance, possibly ISP migration
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2020, 01:15:48 PM »

I believe I am on a Broadcom cabinet which this should work on

No, manually tweaking your SNR doesnít work on Huawei cabinets - these are the ones with Broadcom chipsets - and yes, you are on one.. It only works on ECI cabinets which use IFTN chipsets

Huawei cabinets automatically reduce their SNR margin in stages  if the line is stable and youíre not reaching the maximum speed on your package.

By messing with the SNR youíve prevented this from working and can actually make it harder to improve your speed
« Last Edit: September 14, 2020, 01:18:36 PM by gt94sss2 »
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mandelbug

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Re: FTTC performance, possibly ISP migration
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2020, 01:25:04 PM »

Ah OK thank you, just switched it back to 0
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j0hn

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Re: FTTC performance, possibly ISP migration
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2020, 04:48:01 AM »

No, manually tweaking your SNR doesnít work on Huawei cabinets - these are the ones with Broadcom chipsets - and yes, you are on one.. It only works on ECI cabinets which use IFTN chipsets

Huawei cabinets automatically reduce their SNR margin in stages  if the line is stable and youíre not reaching the maximum speed on your package.

By messing with the SNR youíve prevented this from working and can actually make it harder to improve your speed

It does work on Huawei cabinets
It's Broadcom modems that can't do it.

The right Lantiq chipset can manually tweak the SNRM target on both DSLAM vendors.

DLM can of course do this on Huawei cabinets but it doesn't do it for all lines
Some find benefit tweaking it themselves.
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: FTTC performance, possibly ISP migration
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2020, 11:21:50 AM »

DLM can of course do this on Huawei cabinets but it doesn't do it for all lines
Some find benefit tweaking it themselves.

I'd still imagine it risks banding the line or enabling interleaving though, anything that attempts to defy DLM risks it taking actions to try to correct what it sees as an out-of-spec line.  Thus how my ECI line got banded blocking my 3dB adjustment, and it was banded from day one to prevent me going below 3.4dBm which took me by surprise.
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j0hn

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Re: FTTC performance, possibly ISP migration
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2020, 02:02:03 PM »

Banding is almost exclusively used for lines that resync too often.

The appearance of DLM applying banding to you and kitz for something that wasn't multiple resyncs was out of the ordinary.
You're both on the G.INP trial though, it might be another tool in the DLM arsenal that OpenReach have decided to use more often.

Remember Huawei cabinets have successfully working G.INP.
There was almost no difference in the ES on my line at 6dB and 3dB. Both had around 1 ES a day.

I personally think it's much safer to apply a manual target SNRM on a Huawei cabinet with G.INP than it is on an ECI cabinet without it.
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Weaver

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Re: FTTC performance, possibly ISP migration
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2020, 04:17:25 PM »

Hi Mandelbug, and welcome to the forum.

Iím a longtime AA user myself. Have you also thought about Zen?
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spaace

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Re: FTTC performance, possibly ISP migration
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2020, 07:42:58 PM »

No, manually tweaking your SNR doesnít work on Huawei cabinets - these are the ones with Broadcom chipsets - and yes, you are on one.. It only works on ECI cabinets which use IFTN chipsets

Huawei cabinets automatically reduce their SNR margin in stages  if the line is stable and youíre not reaching the maximum speed on your package.

By messing with the SNR youíve prevented this from working and can actually make it harder to improve your speed

This happens on mine and I've always wondered why? i sync around 66mb and my SNR sits around 3db mostly, gradually it lowers to nothing and reconnects and repeats. Weird thing is it could be once in 24hours or once every 2 weeks. I only get the odd ES, can be weeks without any
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: FTTC performance, possibly ISP migration
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2020, 12:29:47 AM »

This happens on mine and I've always wondered why? i sync around 66mb and my SNR sits around 3db mostly, gradually it lowers to nothing and reconnects and repeats. Weird thing is it could be once in 24hours or once every 2 weeks. I only get the odd ES, can be weeks without any

That's not DLM reducing the SNR (it bottoms out at 3dB) but something else such as crosstalk, attenuation (line temperature changes) or just bugs in the modem preventing it from correctly adjusting the bitloading.
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