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Author Topic: master socket wiring puzzle  (Read 2463 times)

Alex Atkin UK

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Re: master socket wiring puzzle
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2020, 04:47:54 PM »

However, modern master sockets (which yours is) connect the ring wire via an inductor in order to block high frequency junk, so this shouldn't matter in this case. As burakkucat says, leave it for now until we can see the full picture.

I believe the theory is the inductor reduces the problem but does not necessarily eliminate it entirely.

Personally I would have been rid of that ring wire at step 1 as there's nothing to lose by doing that, but I didn't want to tread on the toes of the people already helping in this thread.
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jamesbob

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Re: master socket wiring puzzle
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2020, 08:20:10 PM »

I have now taken photos of the insides of the master socket and extension socket:

full resolution photos hosted on imgur


Also note that I was previously wrong about the number of extensions in the house - I genuinely hadn't noticed that there are loads! I've found 5 so far, one in every room! I'll edit the original post to reflect this.

Attached here are only some of the photos at lower resolution, for ease of use, or if the imgur links don't work after a while.

It seems the faceplate doesn't have any clever electronics to reduce noise on the ring wire.

I think, in my non-expert opinion, the fact of every room having an extension is cause for lots of noise.

Should I ask a BT engineer to move the master socket to the bedroom by going up the side of the house?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2020, 08:22:20 PM by jamesbob »
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siofjofj

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Re: master socket wiring puzzle
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2020, 08:48:18 PM »

Thank you for the images.

First the bad news:
From the photo you took of behind the master socket (attached for reference), it looks like the wiring from each extension socket terminates behind the master socket. With 5 extension sockets (which I think will be the total number, since each blue crimp connector contains 5 outgoing wires plus the one going to the terminals on the master socket), this means you have a very bad case of star-wiring, which means you have multiple bridge taps. Each extension, in particular the ring wire on each, will indeed pick up interference, but I would suggest it is the many bridge taps (or indeed the signal reflections that result from them) that is messing up your connection.

Now the good news:
Since you have access to the wires going to each socket, this should be easy to rectify yourself if you wish. Additionally, the cabling that has been used appears to be an appropriate specification (I think I can make out the text "CATEGORY 5E" on the grey outer jacket on the rightmost cable behind the master socket). Fixing this is therefore a matter of identifying which of the cables goes to the extension you wish to use for the router and separating this out from all the others. Do you need any of the other extension sockets to work, or will you be happy with only the one used for the router (both options are possible, but if you want the other extensions to work for telephones you will need to buy a centralised filter faceplate for around 15)?

Please confirm if the cable behind the master socket does have "CATEGORY 5E" written on it, and how many of the extensions you need. We'll then advise further.

It seems the faceplate doesn't have any clever electronics to reduce noise on the ring wire.
On the NTE5C, the bell wire filter (which is just a single inductor, nothing fancy) is in the socket itself, not the faceplate. In any case, as part of the repair, the plan will either be to disconnect the ring wire completely, or connect it via a VDSL faceplate (depending on whether or not you want further telephone extensions) alleviating any issues it may be causing. More on this later when we know what your requirements are.

Should I ask a BT engineer to move the master socket to the bedroom by going up the side of the house?
That is an option, but will be ridiculously expensive and more disruptive (but no better performing) than what we can achieve by rearranging the existing wiring.

Final question, do you have a multimeter? Not essential, but it will help with identifying which cable is which.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2020, 09:38:35 PM by siofjofj »
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jamesbob

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Re: master socket wiring puzzle
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2020, 10:18:45 PM »

Hi @siofjofj - thanks for a very helpful post.

I don't need to use any of the sockets for landline phones, now or in the likely future. I think "cutting them out" of the star-wiring is the best way forward.

I have a cheap "no-brand" multimeter which I think can measure small voltages and amps .. with a pokey-sharp thing.. but I don't think it of any good quality or accuracy as it was the cheapest thing I could find on amazon years ago for a child's education project. Do I need a multi-meter to measure accurately small voltages?

Just found the item I have: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00YTD8CAE?

Thanks again for your generous suggestions and advice - I have a good feeling that if we can prune that star we can improve the line.

(I will have to open the master socket tomorrow to confirm category 5e, but when I last tried to check the paint seemed to cover the writing permanently)
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burakkucat

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Re: master socket wiring puzzle
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2020, 10:51:45 PM »

Sorry to be back late to your problem. (I had a bad night, last night and today things took longer than I would have liked.)

I've reviewed all of the photographs and agree with siofjofj's analysis.

As for your multimeter, that looks perfectly acceptable. You will only be dealing with a DC voltage in the order of 50V and a maximum current of the order of low double-digit mA.
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siofjofj

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Re: master socket wiring puzzle
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2020, 07:56:42 AM »

OK then, if you only want the one extension this will be straightforward. Don't worry too much if you can't read what the cable says on it, I can see that it is twisted pair from the photos so is likely good enough even if it is not CAT5e (CAT5E is significantly better than what is required, the minimum being CW1308 telephone cable).

First, make sure you know which pair of wires are the ones going to the A & B terminals on the back of the master socket. Be very sure not to accidentally cut these as they are not your property, they belong to Openreach. You should be able to gently pull all the other wiring forward slightly and untwist things in order to improve access. You will note that each grey cable has a solid blue wire, a solid orange wire, and a blue with white stripe wire (plus a bunch of other wires which have been cut off flush with the cable end). Remove the existing three wires from the three cam-lock* terminals on the front of the master socket.

The task now is to identify which of the five outgoing cables goes to the extension socket you wish to use. Then connect the solid blue wire from that cable (only) to terminal 2 on the front of the master socket and the blue with white stripe wire (from the same cable) to terminal 5 on the front of the master socket. The solid orange wire and corresponding terminal 3 are for the ring wire and should be left disconnected.

There's a few ways of identifying which cable is which. The simplest would be by trial and error, so just cut all the wires out of the crimp terminals, wire up a single pair to the front of the master socket, replace the faceplate, then see if a telephone works at the extension socket you want (could also try all the other extensions then label all the wires in case you change your mind in years to come). If you don't have a telephone this last step could be done by checking for around 50V DC across terminals 2 & 5 behind the extension socket, but don't use your router to test it at this stage as repeated connections and disconnections can lead to Openreach's equipment thinking your line has a fault and banding your connection as a result.

Another technique you could use, if you would prefer not to separate out all the wires, would be to short the spare green and green with stripe (say) wires together at the extension socket, then check for continuity between these spare wires behind the master socket using your multimeter. Once you have located it, then simply cut out the relevant blue, blue with stripe and orange wires from the crimp terminals and wire up the blue ones as above.

When wiring up the terminals, try to keep the blue and blue with stripe wires twisted together (in the same way the spare pairs behind the extension socket are) over as much of their length as possible.

Once this is done, tidy up the cut wires somehow towards the back of the box, replace the master socket, replace the faceplate and connect your router to the extension (no filter required here if you don't use a telephone at the extension). Please let us know the result.

* These cam-lock connectors work by hinging them up from the bottom. Once it is lifted, you can pull the wires out. To install new wiring, insert straight pieces of wire into the relevant holes (without stripping any insulation) then fold the connector back down. The connector contains metal teeth which will cut a hole in the insulation as you fold it down in order to make contact.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 08:39:45 AM by siofjofj »
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jamesbob

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Re: master socket wiring puzzle
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2020, 02:26:43 PM »

Thanks @siofjofj this is really helpful - I'll certainly have a go.

Are there any web pages out there which have pictures/photos to doing this at all - I think if I can "see" what I'm doing, it would help a nervous amateur like myself.


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siofjofj

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Re: master socket wiring puzzle
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2020, 02:46:22 PM »

I generally use the diagram under the blue header "The Wiring" on this page http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk/WPP/Wiring/UK_telephone/uk_telephone.html for reference. I'll try and draw up something specific to your situation shortly.

There's some instructions for operating the cam-lock connectors here (ignore the 2nd section on the Mk4 VDSL filter since we are not using that here) https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/helpandsupport/how-toguides/howtoguides/downloads/NTE5C_Instructions_CP.pdf
« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 02:52:47 PM by siofjofj »
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siofjofj

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Re: master socket wiring puzzle
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2020, 03:26:24 PM »

OK, I hope these are useful. The first one, 'Current.png' is a diagram of how I believe your wiring is currently connected. The second 'Target.png' is what we are trying to achieve. The wiring to the unwanted extensions obviously does not have to remain in the crimp terminals if you want to separate everything out first in order to go for the 'trial and error' technique, the point is that none of it should be connected to the telephone line.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 03:28:42 PM by siofjofj »
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burakkucat

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Re: master socket wiring puzzle
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2020, 05:12:59 PM »

Just "purrfect" instructions. If I didn't already know my way around the topic, wearing a blindfold and asleep, the diagrams make it all absolutely clear.

There is one thing I would be very tempted to do -- especially if I still had the extension socket de-mounted from its backing box -- and that would be to remove the orange wire from IDC3. (Ye olde and redundant belle wiree.)
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jamesbob

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Re: master socket wiring puzzle
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2020, 06:05:37 PM »

hi @burakkicat do you mean remote the ring wire from the extension socket as well, in addition to the master socket? .. which I makes sense as it would be an "aerial" picking up interference at the extension socket too.
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burakkucat

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Re: master socket wiring puzzle
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2020, 07:24:59 PM »

hi @burakkicat do you mean remote the ring wire from the extension socket as well, in addition to the master socket?

Yes, that's correct.
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jamesbob

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Re: master socket wiring puzzle
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2020, 11:14:08 PM »

ok - I will have a go this weekend.

(I won't attempt it this week as I need the internet for work... )
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burakkucat

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Re: master socket wiring puzzle
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2020, 12:05:59 AM »

I've just taken another look at the wiring at the extension socket (shown in reply #16) (IMG_20200907_194729.jpg) and noticed that there is also a redundant wire attached to IDC4.  :-[

So both wires, the orange (IDC3) and the white with orange stripe (IDC4) can be removed. Don't cut them, just gently pull them out.
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siofjofj

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Re: master socket wiring puzzle
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2020, 08:26:59 AM »

Just "purrfect" instructions. If I didn't already know my way around the topic, wearing a blindfold and asleep, the diagrams make it all absolutely clear.
Thanks very much! That's quite the complement.

I won't attempt it this week as I need the internet for work...
A wise plan, though remember if you get stuck at any stage you will still be able to access the internet by connecting your router to the test socket, at which point you will be able to send us more photos and ask for further advice.
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