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Author Topic: Openreach - Three activations missed due to Routing Issue  (Read 9287 times)

Freedom2

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Re: Openreach - Three activations missed due to Routing Issue
« Reply #90 on: September 12, 2020, 06:58:25 PM »

Sky do have a mesh, there is
- Sky Q
- Sky Q Mini
- Sky Hub
- Sky Booster 2

In the house, however the range on some of those devices is not that great to make the most of VDSL2+ speeds. There's for sure some loss between the main hub and the booster and the booster and the Q mini whatever arrangement or location I have with them. Perhaps a second SKy Booster would make a big difference.

The powerline is working really well. The powerline is plugged into the interior wall in the living which the other side of is the left side exterior wall and come to think of it, most of the plug sockets in the house are on that exterior wall, apart from some on the exterior wall at the back of the living room and the bedroom directly above, whilst the BT line comes into the house on an internal wall with the kitchen on the other side, and there are no sockets on the front exterior wall of the house or the semi-detached part of the wall.

Might be how I am avoiding interference that others seem to find chronic as the Openreach socket seems quite well isolated from any electrical sockets.

Good evening speed tonight too, had it download an 80GB file over powerline and it didn't even blink or drop speed, let alone lose sync

« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 09:12:55 PM by Freedom2 »
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Ronski

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Re: Openreach - Three activations missed due to Routing Issue
« Reply #91 on: September 13, 2020, 10:56:44 AM »

Some mesh system will use a separate wi-fi network for the back haul, these are generally more expensive, but perform far better. Cheaper ones share the same wi-fi network for the back haul so don't perform as well.

If the powerline adapters are working well, and isn't causing any problems, and you don't have any HAM Radio enthusiasts near by then carry on using them, trouble is I'm not sure you'll know if they are affecting your connection without proper stats until the DLM takes action, but hopefully they will be fine.
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Freedom2

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Re: Openreach - Three activations missed due to Routing Issue
« Reply #92 on: September 13, 2020, 11:28:39 AM »

It hasn't lost sync yet (can monitor that through router) and my ping is really low all of the time, much lower than on Wifi. The powerlines are TP-LINK with the VDSL interference reduction mode switched on. I haven't tried it with it switched off, nor do I intend to.

Since I'm only here temporarily to care for my father who doesn't need internet access in the room with a blackspot when I go back to my own place, I'm reluctant to spend too much money on a solution for what will most likely be only for a short period.

First moment I see any problems i'll re-evaluate, I'm checking the router logs quite often, but I'm not seeing any degrading of performance wherever I am in the house since plugging them in, loss of sync, increased latency or lagging that I've heard others complain about with VDSL and powerline.

This morning I got 76Mbps downstream and 19.1Mbps downstream via Sky router via ethernet and 73.5Mbps downstream and 18.9Mbps downstream via powerline. Yes there is a drop off compared to ethernet downstairs in the office, but it's very minor and vastly superior to the jittery bursting mess I had on Wifi.

Nothing like the Virgin Media connection I had in Dublin mind, but that network over there is supreme.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2020, 11:32:12 AM by Freedom2 »
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j0hn

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Re: Openreach - Three activations missed due to Routing Issue
« Reply #93 on: September 13, 2020, 06:49:39 PM »

The main consequence with Powerline adapters can be the increase in FEC (and ES on some lines) that can make DLM put a line on Interleaving, or prevent it removing Interleaving.
In extreme cases they can make the SNRM bounce around and effect sync.

I had Powerline adapters running and they shot my FEC numbers up from circa 5000 per min to 100,000+ per min anytime data was being transferred.

My incoming OpenReach feed ran parallel with some of my electrical wiring to a power socket right next to my master socket.
I moved the power socket about a meter to the left so that my OpenReach wiring never came within a meter of my electrical circuit.
After that I had absolutely zero impact on my xDSL circuit from using Powerline adapters. Not a single FEC increase from using them.

It depends on how your internal OpenReach wiring runs in proximity to your electrical wiring and the type of Powerline adapters used. Some are worse than others.
I have an old set of BT AV500's that never had any impact on the VDSL even prior to the power socket being moved.
It was the much pricier TP-Link kit that caused issues.
The TP-Links don't have the VDSL interference option you mention though.

So you're unlikely to notice if the Powerline adapters are having any impact on your line as most ISP modems don't give that kind of detail (advanced error stats).
It's rare (though can happen) that they directly affect the sync speed or SNRM.

I generally advise against their use when troubleshooting issues just to rule them out but many people find them convenient and have zero issues from using them, myself included in the past.

If they work for you and they are having no impact then why not.

Now I'm on FTTP using Powerline adapters would have no impact on my broadband but they are currently buried at the back of a cupboard somewhere. I'm about to decorate so will run some cat5e around the house instead.
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Freedom2

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Re: Openreach - Three activations missed due to Routing Issue
« Reply #94 on: September 13, 2020, 08:35:43 PM »

Latest result


Having watched my ping and played a bit online earlier the ping is always super low and every speedtest I do i'm getting 7-9ms which seems to suggest that there is no interleaving. The Openreach socket is well away from the plug socket, helped by a long cable on the ethernet to powerline to try and keep as much distance as possible between them.

The only thing I notice is that with powerline is that when you start a speedtest is that generally you see the speed steadily increase as the test goes on. For example on that test above it started about 60Mbps and gradually worked it's way up to 72Mbps, I think it could have got higher if the test went on for a bit longer. I assume it takes the powerline a bit to get going? If I run another speedtest straight off the back of the previous one it's up to speed straight away.

The BT speedtest is totally out of whack for me, it shows me only attaining about 50Mbps which is completely out of whack with what I'm seeing on other speed testers and downloads. It's noticeable that such speedtest is pretty 'bursty' compared to the others, which does suggest interleaving but the pings and other evidence doesn't appear to back this up.

Sync has still held from 4.00pm on Friday.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2020, 08:39:18 PM by Freedom2 »
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Openreach - Three activations missed due to Routing Issue
« Reply #95 on: September 13, 2020, 09:57:19 PM »

Yeah it sounds like you're fine, the BT speedtest is known to be completely unreliable.
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Freedom2

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Re: Openreach - Three activations missed due to Routing Issue
« Reply #96 on: September 13, 2020, 10:10:34 PM »

Yeah, I've got excellent speeds where I need them now and decent speeds everywhere else.

However the place with the worst speeds right now happens to be the place where the router itself is which is not what I expected. Speed tests show it bouncing between 35Mbps and 55Mbps even if phone etc is placed right next to the router. Could powerline be causing Wifi interference?

It's clearly not a connection issue as anything connected via ethernet is hitting 72Mbps via powerline and about 75Mbps via direct router connection.
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Openreach - Three activations missed due to Routing Issue
« Reply #97 on: September 13, 2020, 10:43:43 PM »

The strange thing about WiFi is its actually possible to have too strong a signal which causes interference itself.  Although just being in the same room wouldn't normally be a problem, right next to the router can be.

Not sure about the powerline interfering, you'd think that would cause issues further away too if it did, but you can't be sure as it may only be tripping up the clients not the router and only strong enough to be a problem when close by  RFI is a strange beast..
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Broadband: Zen Full Fibre 900 + Three 5G Routers: pfSense (Intel N100) + Huawei CPE Pro 2 H122-373 WiFi: Zyxel NWA210AX
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Freedom2

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Re: Openreach - Three activations missed due to Routing Issue
« Reply #98 on: September 16, 2020, 10:52:32 PM »

The strange thing about WiFi is its actually possible to have too strong a signal which causes interference itself.  Although just being in the same room wouldn't normally be a problem, right next to the router can be.

Not sure about the powerline interfering, you'd think that would cause issues further away too if it did, but you can't be sure as it may only be tripping up the clients not the router and only strong enough to be a problem when close by  RFI is a strange beast..

Still holding up really well, still been sync'd whole time and getting this via powerline:


I've reset the router downstairs and Wifi is back to normal again down there and really good speeds. So seems that problem has been resolved. I've also rejigged the boosters and mini boxes to give at least 40Mbps all over the house so that's another issue sorted.

Sky have compensated with approx 3 months of broadband service credit. Everything is working well and couldn't be happier :)
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Freedom2

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Re: Openreach - Three activations missed due to Routing Issue
« Reply #99 on: September 25, 2020, 06:13:09 PM »

After 12 days of using the powerline flawlessly with not a single drop in sync and speedtests and insanely low pings showing around 74-76Mbps download, ultra fast downloads and excellent gaming I thought I was home and hosed and everything had settled down nicely.

I was then informed that an issue was noticed and a tweak had been applied to fix it. From what I gather someone made the 'mistake' of not turning on DLM and has now turned it on to ''correct' that mistake, which has effected both my sync speed and pings.

Now DLM is seeing a small amount of interference from the powerlines and seems to have turned on interleaving a couple of nights ago and has developed a nasty habit of busting my sync down by 2Mb progressively every night at about 2.40am and I am guessing this pattern is not going to stop.

I understand that that DLM means well, but it is currently fixing something that isn't broken. There was absolutely no visible performance issues with my line until the DLM was turned on. Is there no way I can force them to turn it back off? I have a massive SNR margin and I've held sync for 12 days without it on, so it's not like I really need it.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Openreach - Three activations missed due to Routing Issue
« Reply #100 on: September 25, 2020, 06:53:10 PM »

You may not think there's any issues with your circuits performance, but the DLM will be looking at your 'Mean Time Between Errors' and 'Retrains' and adding stability accordingly.

I suppose you do have an argument that 12 days with no DLM was fine by you, but not sure of policy these days .... ?? They may insist it's kept on ??

Others will know, I'm sure.
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Freedom2

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Re: Openreach - Three activations missed due to Routing Issue
« Reply #101 on: September 25, 2020, 07:27:57 PM »

You may not think there's any issues with your circuits performance, but the DLM will be looking at your 'Mean Time Between Errors' and 'Retrains' and adding stability accordingly.

I suppose you do have an argument that 12 days with no DLM was fine by you, but not sure of policy these days .... ??

Well my line didn't retrain once in 12 days between being set live and someone turning DLM on. It was stable all day, every day with fast download speeds, no packet loss and ultra low pings. That in my book is excellent performance and is not something that should be disturbed. My line was stable before DLM was turned on, now it's not.

For me as an end user, when I'm assessing performance, I care about sync rate, download and upload speed, packet loss, pings, latency and stability of connection and lack of retrains. I would give my connection post DLM being turned on 11/10 in relation to all of those areas.

So it seems that in order to fix an issue that is so minor that it doesn't even affect performance in a way that is noticeable to a human being, we have to affect the performance of everything that is noticeable to a human being. I guess the DLM software must be a fan of achieving pyrrhic victories, because that is exactly the kind of feat it is achieving on my line.
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Openreach - Three activations missed due to Routing Issue
« Reply #102 on: September 26, 2020, 08:42:22 AM »

So it seems that in order to fix an issue that is so minor that it doesn't even affect performance in a way that is noticeable to a human being, we have to affect the performance of everything that is noticeable to a human being. I guess the DLM software must be a fan of achieving pyrrhic victories, because that is exactly the kind of feat it is achieving on my line.

I don't think many of us will disagree, DLM is a PITA and counter productive at times.  Trouble is, that fine line between "stable enough" and "unstable" can't really be determined without DLM and understandably it errs on the side of caution, much to the frustration of us hardcore users who are happy to tweak our line manually and accept the consequences.

Plus as people have pointed out to me in the past, its not all about our lines, its about finding a happy medium where one line isn't dramatically decreasing the performance of several others in the same bundle.  In an ideal world we'd have vectoring to take care of that, but for whatever reason this never happened on the main VDSL roll out.
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Freedom2

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Re: Openreach - Three activations missed due to Routing Issue
« Reply #103 on: September 26, 2020, 09:25:59 AM »

Last night it didn't resync for the first time in a few nights, so at least the daily decline in sync speeds has been halted so it's not got any worse. Will have to see what the next few days bring.

I understand why DLM works the way it does and reducing sync rates for lines which drop up and often retrain because of the line conditions is completely sensible. However sacrificing low latency, low pings, high throughput, no packet loss, and rock solid stability of sync, to reduce a number hitting an artificial threshold that has no visible effect means that it's certainly has flaws in the way it manages lines.

It makes you think that it was designed by people who cared more about getting perfect numbers than the actual real world performance for the end user. It's the very essence of applying a fix that is completely counterproductive.
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Ronski

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Re: Openreach - Three activations missed due to Routing Issue
« Reply #104 on: September 26, 2020, 09:40:04 AM »

Trouble is you can't see what's going on behind the scenes because you don't have a modem that allows you to use software to see the error rates. There are daily limits for certain errors, once these are exceeded the DLM will take action. On the other hand if it considers your line to be performing well and on a Huawei cabinet them G. INP and dBx will be turned on further improving your lines performance.

Worse case your line could end up banded., which means set at a permanent lower spend, and may never recover. Without software monitoring of stats you won't know if its the power line plugs or something else altogether causing it.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2020, 09:42:57 AM by Ronski »
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