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Author Topic: Time division multiplexing for tx vs rx  (Read 2510 times)

sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Time division multiplexing for tx vs rx
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2020, 12:32:26 AM »

Just a thought . . .

The two TDx entities, where x is either D or M, operate on bit-streams and not byte-streams. (That is my understanding . . . Unless I've remembered things incorrectly.)

I suggested earlier that, for TDD to acheive efficient overall bandwith utilisation, the data would have to be sent in bursts.  I would argue that the same appiies, whether it be bursts of bytes or bursts of bits. :)

Inspired by further reading I am growing attached to my theory, based upon the idea that TDD overall performance would be a trade off between optimal bandwidth usage  vs latency.   Early ADSL specifications targeted lines that were generally longer than typical G.Fast lines, hence longer propagation delays.  That would have tilted the trade off in favour of bandwidth and thus be consistent with my notion that TDD would have been distinctly sub-optimal for early ADSL.

A search for a combination of terms such as ‘TDD FDD Latency’ yields many results suggesting that TDD inherently has worse latency than FDD.  But I can’t claim that proves my theories to be correct and I will resist providing any links, as these links tend strongly to be describing radio technology rather than wired DMT.  Subtly different, so the same arguments may not apply. :-\
« Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 12:36:42 AM by sevenlayermuddle »
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Weaver

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Re: Time division multiplexing for tx vs rx
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2020, 11:42:25 AM »

[I am back now, was completely exhausted, couldn’t wake up.]

I think I should indeed have used the term ‘duplexing’ or ‘duplex division’ or something, the latter perhaps because ‘duplex’ isn’t a verb, so I’m not sure I believe in the word ‘duplexing’ but it might be sufficiently useful to forget the rules.

What controls latency here and what values are we talking about? And in the case of G.Fast, what changed from VDSL2 ?
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Time division multiplexing for tx vs rx
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2020, 12:09:14 PM »

I don’t think there was technically incorrect with using TDM in this context. 

I agree with the today’s wikipedia page

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duplex_(telecommunications)
Quote
Time-division duplexing (TDD) is the application of time-division multiplexing to separate outward and return signals. It emulates full duplex communication over a half duplex communication link.

I personally prefer the more explicit TDD, simply because my brain had become lazily accustomed to equating TDM with encoding of multiple streams in a single direction, rather than encoding of multiple (two) directions.   The realisation that there was more to it than that is what drew me to the thread. :)

I note the same wiki page is among online resources that broadly support my hypothesis regarding latency, with a fleeting mention that TDM/TDD has “greater inherent latency”. But again, that text seems to be more in the context of radio transmissions, so I still can’t claim it proves me right.  Not that I’d claim that Wikipedia proves anything, ever, of course.

Glad to hear you are feeling better. :)
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niemand

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Re: Time division multiplexing for tx vs rx
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2020, 05:30:35 PM »

Mmm.

Cost and complexity. It did what it needed to do - compete with highly asymmetrical cable networks, carriers also using FDM, at the right price point. Separating the upstream and downstream was trivially done with passive filters.

A reminder that neither bytes or bitstreams are seen at physical layer but over analogue transport such as xDSL QAM symbols - a combination of an I and a Q carrier in quadrature with various possible power levels being applied to both to produce various densities of bit loading in each symbol.

The symbol rate, not how many bits are inside there, is what physical layer things care about more. G.fast doesn't adjust timings depending on the spectral density in each direction for instance, it's a fixed number of symbols in each direction and whatever order modulations can be crammed in there each way.
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niemand

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Re: Time division multiplexing for tx vs rx
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2020, 02:10:50 PM »

Blimey. Everyone must be happy with that.  :lol:
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Time division multiplexing for tx vs rx
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2020, 07:09:44 PM »

Blimey. Everyone must be happy with that.  :lol:

Probably attributable to my own legendary stupidity, but I am failing to understand that comment.  ???
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Weaver

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Re: Time division multiplexing for tx vs rx
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2020, 09:33:08 PM »

Ditto, what 7LM said.
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niemand

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Re: Time division multiplexing for tx vs rx
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2020, 12:13:25 PM »

It was me lightheartedly noting that no-one had posted in 6 days on the thread to either concur or tell me I was talking nonsense :lol:

More seriously it takes a bunch of active hardware to do TDM while FDM can be done with passive circuitry: bandpass filters are all you need for that.

Nowadays of course the really cool kids don't even need to do TDM - DoCSIS 4.0 in full-duplex mode uses the same frequencies at the same time to do both Tx and Rx. I fully imagine that that'll be where any future standards of xDSL have to go too, especially given the vastly more limited spectrum available over twisted pair versus coaxial.
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