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[rmk]

Hi,

We ordered FTTP to replace our woeful FTTC last Friday, and have just been given a date for a week next Tuesday.  In theory, it's a PM appointment (that's at least what we requested).  If folk want (and if I've solved my smartphone battery death issue by then) I'll see if I can provide information during the process.

Does anyone know what Openreach's modern installation process is for FTTP in the case of a fibre needing to be run from a pole? OR's "fibre first" video is a little vague, and Enta seem to indicate that there will be two visits.

Are we still expecting two visits, one to fit a CSP and run the fibre from the pole, and a separate visit to do the inside work?

At what point will they want to drill a hole through the wall?

Thanks,
R.

[j0hn]

Openreach have changed the deployment method a few times over the years.
They originally had a CSP and then ran fibre from the CSP to the ONT.
Then they switch to connectorised cables that went straight from the DP to the ONT with no CSP.
The engineer had to cut the black outer layer off this cable for the inside section and this was very fiddly and time consuming.

Openreach have gone back to doing 2 stage installs with a CSP being fitted at stage 1.
You don't need to be present for this stage.

For Stage 2 an appointment is booked. This will be your Tuesday PM appointment.
The engineer will install the ONT inside the property and then run a cable from the ONT to the CSP.
They may end up doing Stage 1 at the same time as Stage 2.

As different areas started their rollouts at different times there will still be some areas using legacy install methods but most installs will be back to using a 2 stage install with a CSP.

[rmk]

Openreach have gone back to doing 2 stage installs with a CSP being fitted at stage 1.
You don't need to be present for this stage.

For Stage 2 an appointment is booked. This will be your Tuesday PM appointment.
The engineer will install the ONT inside the property and then run a cable from the ONT to the CSP.
They may end up doing Stage 1 at the same time as Stage 2.

As different areas started their rollouts at different times there will still be some areas using legacy install methods but most installs will be back to using a 2 stage install with a CSP.

Hi J0hn,

Thanks for that.

We have some probably not unique issues to deal with, which will mean that Openreach will find that if they do not honour our request for them to make contact first, they're going to find it difficult.  They must contact us before doing any work to discuss how to get the fibre into our property, and we need time to prepare for them.

The front facing rooms are bedrooms, where we do not want the fibre coming into and certainly do not want an ONT installed.  We want that in the hall, along with all our other Openreach gubbins and DSL modems.  However, if they are going to need to drill a hole through the wall, we will need to remove a patio door panel from the porch so they have sufficient depth to drill the wall.  That's not something an OR engineer will be willing to do (it takes more than one person.)

All this was explained to Enta when placing the order, and it was explicitly stated that we must be present when the first step is performed, but I fear it's going to be ignored.

So, I think it's going to be "interesting", and possibly a disaster, as I suspect Openreach won't be able to cope with anything that isn't straight forward and requires planning in advance with the property owner.

[PhilipD]

Hi

They will have to contact you as they don't turn up announced as they don't to waste their time getting to you only to find no one is in.  Besides if you are not in they can't install anything anyway, they will not just blindly drill a hole through a wall without knowing what is on the other side.

Don't worry, it will be okay.

Regards

Phil

[rmk]

It'll be interesting what ONT we end up with, being an entirely new area for FTTP.

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/05/openreach-adopts-nokias-10gbps-fttp-broadband-kit-for-uk.html

suggests OR are moving over to Nokia kit from Huawei.

[Geekofbroadband]

"UPDATE 22nd May 2020

Openreach informs that, “We aim to use the Nokia ONT in the same way we currently do today to deliver FTTP; we currently have no plans to utilise any other capability associated with the ONT. The ONT will be used where we deploy Nokia.” The last point is important because it confirms that they won’t interwork the ONTs (i.e. deployments of Huawei in Huawei areas will still exist but not a mix of the two suppliers)."

Is there a way to see if you have ECI, Huawei or Nokia in your area without having to order it first and look at which modem you get? Does this also mean mixing ONT's will now not work like it does with FTTC?

[rmk]

The last point is important because it confirms that they won’t interwork the ONTs (i.e. deployments of Huawei in Huawei areas will still exist but not a mix of the two suppliers).
...
Does this also mean mixing ONT's will now not work like it does with FTTC?

I've been working on GPON stuff for a telecoms company the other side of the Atlantic. (That is public knowledge, since I've been contributing to OpenWRT.) I have a couple of ONT SFPs, one Huawei and one "Nokia", but no OLTs for them, which has recently caused me an issue. Hence, the question of OLTs came up, and compatibility. Essentially, it seems that the management communications does not interwork very well between different ONTs. This means that an area supplied with Huawei ONTs will likely only use Huawei ONTs, and an area supplied with Nokia ONTs will likely only use Nokia ONTs.

Also, bear in mind that Openreach will own the ONT, and it is part of their network, so all the usual rules for equipment up to the demarcation point apply to it. So, if you replace it with a different manufacturer, you could end up with a SFI charge if an engineer needs to fix a problem. I would also imagine that, just like OR monitors the VDSL modem software versions for approval, they will also be recording the serial numbers of the ONTs on the network.

Finally, this is a 1-to-many system - anything that the OLT sends is sent to all ONTs connected to that ONT.  This data is AES encrypted, one of the jobs that the ONT has to do is to pick out data targetted for the local subscriber and decrypt it. The ONT is programmed by the engineer at installation with a subscriber ID, which allows the ONT to know which traffic it should select. So, I would suspect (I don't know, I'm guessing) that if the system sees an unexpected ONT, it would raise an alarm, otherwise anyone could connect an ONT and try multiple different subscriber IDs until they gained network access.

Is there a way to see if you have ECI, Huawei or Nokia in your area without having to order it first and look at which modem you get?

Yes, it would be really useful if we did know what ONT we are going to end up with, so we can plan appropriately for the installation. Bear in mind that Openreach's current policy is to work in a room without the home owner presence (due to Covid-19) so you can't watch what they're doing.

I suspect we will only know which ONT we will be getting when the engineer turns up with it to do the internal work.

[Alex Atkin UK]

So, I would suspect (I don't know, I'm guessing) that if the system sees an unexpected ONT, it would raise an alarm, otherwise anyone could connect an ONT and try multiple different subscriber IDs until they gained network access.

When I asked that question on here it was suggested that each subscriber has their own encryption key provisioned, so swapping out the ONT you'd have zero access without them provisioning the new ONT and then only your own traffic can be decrypted.

Otherwise you could tap into the PON and just monitor everyones traffic.

[rmk]

When I asked that question on here it was suggested that each subscriber has their own encryption key provisioned, so swapping out the ONT you'd have zero access without them provisioning the new ONT and then only your own traffic can be decrypted.

Otherwise you could tap into the PON and just monitor everyones traffic.

From what I've seen of the web interface offered on the Nokia ONT to configure it, there is no encryption key setting - I think the encryption keys may be derived from the serial number and/or subscriber ID.

R.

[Alex Atkin UK]

From what I've seen of the web interface offered on the Nokia ONT to configure it, there is no encryption key setting - I think the encryption keys may be derived from the serial number and/or subscriber ID.

R.

I'm sure they are based on the subscriber ID, but AFAIK only the telco can generate it and it only applies to your own traffic.  Again I'm kinda guessing based on what I vaguely remember being mentioned.  But it would make zero sense to have any method for a PON user to snoop on other users traffic.

[rmk]

I'm sure they are based on the subscriber ID, but AFAIK only the telco can generate it and it only applies to your own traffic.  Again I'm kinda guessing based on what I vaguely remember being mentioned.  But it would make zero sense to have any method for a PON user to snoop on other users traffic.

I'm not that knowledgeable about that part of GPON (all I was doing was getting the GPON SFP modules working with their hardware.)

The G.984.3 ITU standard is publicly available, which describes some of this - this covers the "convergence layer" only.  Reading it, the SLID is not used for the encryption at all (as I would have hoped!)  The keys are generated by each ONT and send to the OLT when the OLT requests a new key.  Since this is an upstream message, it can't be seen by other ONTs connected to the network.  How the ONT generates that encryption key seems not to be defined, although there is an "enhanced security capabilities" section that describes a pre-shared key method.

There may also be a password stored in the ONT, which can be requested by the OLT.

It also reveals that the ONT serial number is an integral part of the OLT activating an ONT - it is in part used to address the ONT during the activation process, and also for some other messages. When the ONT sends its serial number, it also sends the vendor as well.

Appendix VI reveals that authentication can be done via ONT serial number, the password, or "other forms" out of scope of this document.  I believe that the SLID is used as the "password".

Hope my research this evening helps.... this part of GPON is new to me.

[rmk]

Openreach have gone back to doing 2 stage installs with a CSP being fitted at stage 1.

Hi J0hn,

It seems it may be up to OR to decide how many stages they wish to take.

At this point, I'd like to mention that the Kitz FTTC checker page seems defunct - the frame for the checker itself remains blank for me. The next best thing seems to be the BTWholesale checker at https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/ (*) which tells me it's a 1-stage install.

So far, there has been no activity and no further communications beyond being given a "commit date" of this coming Tuesday (sorry if my initial post was misleading on that.) We haven't yet been given an appointment. As I understand (but there is precious little information available) the "commit date" should be the date that the service is supposed to be live? If so, it gives OR one working day (Monday) to make any form of contact to arrange an appointment for the following day.  Somehow, I think this isn't going to happen, and I can see this turning into a disaster.

* - I am not convinced on that checker's reliability though - the FTTC information seems extremely suspect to put it mildly; it claims that our FTTC line is on cab 9 (which it is, I've known this for some time) but it claims our ADSL line is on cab 1. If the FTTC cab lookup instructions on Kitz are correct, that is rather ridiculous given that would make the line several, maybe min. 5, km long, so long that it would not be doing 8M/1M on ADSLMax, and certainly far enough that there is no way what so ever that we could expect the claimed 70-odd Mbps it claims for FTTC, even with the "impacted line" estimate!

R.

[j0hn]

I am not convinced on that checker's reliability though - the FTTC information seems extremely suspect to put it mildly; it claims that our FTTC line is on cab 9 (which it is, I've known this for some time) but it claims our ADSL line is on cab 1.

Confused by this.

What cabinet does the BT Wholesale Broadband checker say you are connected to?

What other source are you using that gives an alternative cabinet number?

ADSL or FTTC are both connected to the same cabinet and both should show up on the Wholesale checker you linked.

[rmk]

Confused by this.

What cabinet does the BT Wholesale Broadband checker say you are connected to?

What other source are you using that gives an alternative cabinet number?

ADSL or FTTC are both connected to the same cabinet and both should show up on the Wholesale checker you linked.

Hi J0hn,

This is our area - https://www.telecom-tariffs.co.uk/codelook.htm?xid=132654&cabinets=10858

PCP and cabinet 9 - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3127007,-0.2141509,3a,75y,57.18h,83.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQHVj15pPUBB-gZoI19VXjw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Cabinet 1 (without an obvious PCP) - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3122,-0.2371923,3a,75y,337.51h,66.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNr8gfOs_6vU_TWsXlSlPDw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

The Exchange is located in Garratts Lane - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3185734,-0.2089784,3a,75y,16.65h,77.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjTgQxc-aY12ZK3mQhWxt5g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

We are located within the V shape formed by Reigate Road and Brighton Road (roughly central in the maps URL I give above.)

We have two lines:

One is ADSLMax with an attenuation of 36dB down, 20dB up. It used to perform around 4.5Mbps / 1Mbps, but has been creeping up over the years to 8Mbps/1Mbps. According to BTW, the ADSLMax line would be connected to cabinet 1.  The estimated FTTC speeds are 51.4 to 75.9Mbps for an impacted line, which is very obviously rubbish.

The other is our present FTTC, and after the recent "port reset", it's now jumped from 10.1Mbps/600kbps to 13.1Mbps/504kbps.  The HG612 claims 32dB attenuation (iirc down).  The Draytek 130 that was on it claimed 34dB / 50dB attenuation - I forget which way round. According to BTW the FTTC line is connected to cabinet 9 (which is correct). Estimated FTTC speeds are 17.3 to 8.8Mbps for an impacted line, which is about right.

I've spoken to various engineers over the last 25 years about the route of our lines when various faults have occurred, and I'm very certain that neither of them head off anywhere close to cabinet 1, which means the BTW checker is incorrect. We've had faults on both lines which required work in PCP 9. The claim of 50+Mbps if the ADSLMax line were to be converted to FTTC is also highly unlikely given that both of our lines are routed similarly, and our present FTTC line struggles to get 13Mbps.

R.

[j0hn]

I see.
Sounds very much like a database issue.
Very unlikely your ADSL line is connected to cabinet 1.

PCP1 is at the roundabout in the Google maps link you provided, on garlichill road.
The (very very graffiti'd) Huawei FTTC cabinet is on the opposite side of the roundabout on Downland Way.