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Author Topic: Windows 10 Version 2004 released  (Read 5007 times)

tiffy

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Re: Windows 10 Version 2004 released
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2020, 07:12:08 PM »

While browsing for something else came across this anomaly reported since Win 10, 2004 update:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffHIY6pOJUk

Thankfully have not yet updated my main desktop PC to 2004 but have disabled the auto optimise option on my Win 10/Linux dual boot PC which has been updated and is running two SSD's.
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Windows 10 Version 2004 released
« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2020, 01:13:46 AM »

AFAIK there's no such thing as Trimming too often, it has to be done sooner or later.  The main reason to delay it is not to avoid wear as its minimal, its to avoid trimming while you are writing to the SSD and so slowing down writes.

Its only recently that Linux has adopted periodic trimming rather than letting the drive do it constantly.  You can still choose either option as neither is considered the single best solution for all scenarios.

Disabling trimming is a bad idea though, it will eventually slow down your SSD as its forced to trim during a write operation due to no free blocks left.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 01:16:34 AM by Alex Atkin UK »
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jelv

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Re: Windows 10 Version 2004 released
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2020, 09:35:44 AM »

I've not got an SSD but had a look at the video out of interest and had a quick read up on what trimming is.

He doesn't seem to be differentiate between defragging and trimming and seems to think they are both bad if done too often. AIUI trimming is essential and doesn't shorten the life of the drive as it isn't moving data around so I'd have thought more frequent smaller trims would be less noticeable. Defragging does move data around so will shorten drive life. Also, defragging was introduced for traditional drives where bringing data physically close together will reduce access times - is there any benefit to drefragging on an SSD.

Back to the video. When he clicked on one of the events at the bottom it showed it was a trim not a defrag that had just been done - so where's the problem?

My assessment of the video: fake news, load of bollocks...

Have I got that right?
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Windows 10 Version 2004 released
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2020, 09:51:12 AM »

Indeed, Trimming erases NAND blocks that are no longer used for active data so that they can be written to faster.  Its literally a case of either do it now while the SSD is idle, or do it right before you are about to write new data, slowing everything down.

I believe an SSD may also avoid writing to those blocks that have not yet been trimmed in order to avoid the speed cost of wiping the block first, which can mean unevenly wearing out the NAND.

One could argue its better to do it too often to maintain the health of the SSD than it is to do it too little.  It could very well be they deliberately made this change in how Windows deals with SSDs.
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Chrysalis

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Re: Windows 10 Version 2004 released
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2020, 12:24:14 PM »

I did some testing comparing 1607 LTSB to 1809 LTSC.

On some tests on intel cpu there is a 46% performance loss fully patched, this is reduced to 18% with meltdown and spectre mitigation disabled.  Ouch. 

I also tested on ryzen and that loses performance between 1607 and 1809 also, but these tests I think are largely mitigated in most consumer workloads, they are on some quite old software frameworks which dont utilise modern acceleration techniques, I think the only modern workload I seen with a 10%+ hit was ssd io/sec testing.
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Bowdon

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Re: Windows 10 Version 2004 released
« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2020, 01:31:09 PM »

The ssd bug is about defragging, not trimming.

ssd's have a limited amount of writes, so if having defragging on is wasting writes and will shorten the life of the ssd.

Defragging is supposed to be turned off by default for ssd's.

He did an update video recently that fixed a lot of the bugs. But unfortunately the defrag ssd issue is still there. You can manually turn it off.


He keeps having a go at this other tech guy who does videos and keeps advising people to get the latest upgrade, even when it means downloading media creation or windows update assistant. I got to say I agree with Britec09 its irresponsible of the other guy to keep advising people to do that, and is a little weird because on every other issue he's like "only upgrade if you have to".

I'm still on an older version of Windows 10. I noticed it says its not available for my device yet. It would be interesting to see why is it being held up. Is there any program to see that?
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Ronski

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Re: Windows 10 Version 2004 released
« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2020, 08:55:15 PM »

I've had 2004 for sometime now, both my SSD's state never run under last analysed or optimised, so I presume they've never been defragged, but I've removed them from the list just to be safe.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2020, 08:57:20 PM by Ronski »
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Windows 10 Version 2004 released
« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2020, 11:08:26 PM »

The ssd bug is about defragging, not trimming.

ssd's have a limited amount of writes, so if having defragging on is wasting writes and will shorten the life of the ssd.

Defragging is supposed to be turned off by default for ssd's.

No, its not.  Its about Windows not remembering when it last trimmed the SSD so it potentially does it every day.  Windows Defrag does NOT Defrag SSDs, it only TRIMs them.  The confusion is people not understanding what this actually means and how it makes negligible difference how often you do it.
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Ronski

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Re: Windows 10 Version 2004 released
« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2020, 09:54:27 AM »

No, its not.  Its about Windows not remembering when it last trimmed the SSD so it potentially does it every day.  Windows Defrag does NOT Defrag SSDs, it only TRIMs them.  The confusion is people not understanding what this actually means and how it makes negligible difference how often you do it.

So by following earlier advice have I actually turned off trim for my SSD's - see attached???

ETA. It would appear so https://www.howtogeek.com/256859/dont-waste-time-optimizing-your-ssd-windows-knows-what-its-doing/ I'll re-enable it.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 09:57:48 AM by Ronski »
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parkdale

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Re: Windows 10 Version 2004 released
« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2020, 10:32:32 AM »

I came across this article... Remember "Garbage collection"? on SSD's all trim does is to trigger garbage collection at block level therefore freeing up that space for more data.
https://getprostorage.com/blog/ssd-garbage-collection-trim/

Garbage collection will delete the data.......eventually :fingers:
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Chrysalis

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Re: Windows 10 Version 2004 released
« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2020, 12:00:06 PM »

yep trim, kind of really just makes the internal maintenance happen a bit earlier, and assists, but now days SSD's are designed to be able to do what they need to do unassisted by the OS.

I am still on windows 8 and I checked windows defrag, I did configure it to run once a week, but my SSD's have not been trimmed by that tool for over a year, they still run at their top performance level.
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gt94sss2

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Re: Windows 10 Version 2004 released
« Reply #56 on: August 08, 2020, 05:09:29 PM »

I'm still on an older version of Windows 10. I noticed it says its not available for my device yet. It would be interesting to see why is it being held up. Is there any program to see that?

I have a PC in the same position and the best I can find is looking at the list of unresolved issues which MS have decided means the update shouldn't yet be offered and to guess which applies

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/release-information/status-windows-10-2004

I'm assuming a lot of people are affected by the driver issues listed.
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Windows 10 Version 2004 released
« Reply #57 on: August 08, 2020, 11:06:27 PM »

I think my mums PC got updated as she said Windows updated and now Firefox keeps crashing.

My Ryzen laptop was updated and I did not notice any issues, but it doesn't get used much.  That's basically my web browsing only laptop.

Both my gaming desktop and gaming laptop are waiting on the update, which is ironic as those are the ones that should actually benefit from it due to the improvements in GPU drivers.

Knowing my luck the desktop will update now, seeing as I seem to be one of the few people where Horizon Zero Dawn isn't crashing.  ::)
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Bowdon

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Re: Windows 10 Version 2004 released
« Reply #58 on: September 06, 2020, 11:25:57 AM »

I just updated to 2004 this morning. It waited until 1am last night to say "hey there is an update.. want to start it now", just as I was going to bed lol. Luckily it doesnt just start the upgrade like it used to.

So far everything seems the same as before. Only thing I had to change was the monitor colour system. It must have reset it to the default.

I'm only 30 minutes in to using it, so there is time for all hell to break loose yet  :fingers:
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Windows 10 Version 2004 released
« Reply #59 on: September 07, 2020, 07:57:23 AM »

I'm all updated now too and nothing obviously different from the update.  Although its hard to say, had a lot of problems with the photos app not opening photos, Windows thinking a file on a network drive is still open when its not, but I think these are just general Windows stupidity rather than this update specifically.  ::)

When it comes to gaming, nothing obviously any different to before.

I must say having spent three days mostly on Windows as I was playing with Gigapixel AI upscaling, I HATE Windows.  When even simple tasks like opening a photo from a network drive takes a few second vs practically instant on Linux.  I found myself having to SSH into my server to rename or delete files/folder, as Windows thought they were still open for no good reason after closing.  Everything is just so much harder on Windows 10, I don't remember it being nearly this bad on 7.
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