Kitz ADSL Broadband Information
adsl spacer  
Support this site
Home Broadband ISPs Tech Routers Wiki Forum
 
     
   Compare ISP   Rate your ISP
   Glossary   Glossary
 
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: FTTP latency.... higher than on VDSL(FTTC)  (Read 1025 times)

zvirus

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 47
FTTP latency.... higher than on VDSL(FTTC)
« on: May 17, 2020, 10:26:13 AM »

Hi,

 Just wonder....

 I have had this on VDSL:

 >ping bbc.co.uk

Pinging bbc.co.uk [151.101.128.81] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 151.101.128.81: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=58
Reply from 151.101.128.81: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=58
Reply from 151.101.128.81: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=58
Reply from 151.101.128.81: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=58



And now having FTTP:

>ping bbc.co.uk

Pinging bbc.co.uk [151.101.192.81] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 151.101.192.81: bytes=32 time=22ms TTL=60
Reply from 151.101.192.81: bytes=32 time=24ms TTL=60
Reply from 151.101.192.81: bytes=32 time=27ms TTL=60
Reply from 151.101.192.81: bytes=32 time=26ms TTL=60

Is this normal?

Line looks like this:



What is VERY interesting I think Virgin is using tunneling when their hub set to MODEM mode (No VPN used on my side):



Hop #2 after my router (192.168.2.1)



Open VPN on my side:



The lowest observed pings using only Virgin M200:

>ping 1.1.1.1

Pinging 1.1.1.1 with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 1.1.1.1: bytes=32 time=20ms TTL=58
Reply from 1.1.1.1: bytes=32 time=18ms TTL=58
Reply from 1.1.1.1: bytes=32 time=19ms TTL=58
Reply from 1.1.1.1: bytes=32 time=17ms TTL=58


In the morning I switched hub to so called "Router Mode" and... all was the same SPEED and LATENCY.

Around 220Mbps  upload and 22Mbps download 20ms latency while testing on https://www.speedtest.net/

The good side of the story is when I`m using Open VPN on my side(client) delays go to just 25-30ms


I`m a "bit" surprised regarding delays... I was expecting them at least to be the same...  :-[



Cheers!
Tomas
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 11:07:40 AM by zvirus »
Logged
Virgin M200 200/20

With QoS turned ON...

Alex Atkin UK

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1165
    • My Broadband History
Re: FTTP latency.... higher than on VDSL(FTTC)
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2020, 12:01:26 PM »

Is this actually FTTP or Cable?  Their website says Fibre then clearly says "DOCSIS 3 Cable" further down the page.

I have to agree that something looks rather off with that second hop, modem/bridge mode should not look like that at all.  Even if it WAS tunneled, it should be completely invisible from the router.
Logged
Exchange: INTAKE (ECI DSLAM) Router: pfSense (i5-7200U) ISP/Modems: Zen (Home Hub 5A running OpenWrt) + Plusnet (VMG-3925-B10B) WiFi: Ubiquiti nanoHD

zvirus

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 47
Re: FTTP latency.... higher than on VDSL(FTTC)
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2020, 12:31:16 PM »

Fibre optic to  my property (wall) then coax = DOCSIS 3 Cable

Around 15m Fibre Optic from street cab + 1.5m coax to be precise...


So far I found on various forums 20ms is quite normal... I wont cry having 200Mb Download... but same 10ms will be better than 20ms :)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 03:17:05 PM by zvirus »
Logged
Virgin M200 200/20

With QoS turned ON...

j0hn

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 2865
Re: FTTP latency.... higher than on VDSL(FTTC)
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2020, 04:59:00 PM »

It's RFOG (radio frequency over glass).
It's still Virgin DOCSIS from the cabinet.

I'm on a brand new Virgin FTTP rollout and the latency is worse than VDSL2.
I was expecting it to be worse though.
I purchased it for the higher speed.

DOCSIS just has higher latency than VDSL2 in most cases (when pinging the same location).
Logged

zvirus

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 47
Re: FTTP latency.... higher than on VDSL(FTTC)
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2020, 06:39:24 PM »

THANK You.

Still not bad - only left TalkTalk for decreasing upload speeds...

I wish to have 50 up 50 down broadband (not 200/20) but impossible in country like N. Ireland

In real life 40Mbps download was PLENTY in my household (kids still under 10 yo)


Have to live with 20ms pings...  ::)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 08:22:09 PM by zvirus »
Logged
Virgin M200 200/20

With QoS turned ON...

CarlT

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1589
  • Next generation network design and deployment
Re: FTTP latency.... higher than on VDSL(FTTC)
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2020, 09:24:02 PM »

No tunnelling. Latency is about normal depending where in the country you are. The standard VM use adds a bit of latency and their core network can go around the houses due to being built around linking cable network locations.
Logged
WiFi: Nighthawk® AX12 RAX120 - 5Gb uplink
Routing: Ubiquiti UDM Pro - 10Gb uplink
Switching: 2 * Mikrotik CRS305-1G-4S-IN, 10Gb uplinks, various cheap and cheerful
ONT: Huawei 1+1
Exchange: Wakefield
ISP: BT Full Fibre 900. Yes, BT, I know.

zvirus

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 47
Re: FTTP latency.... higher than on VDSL(FTTC)
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2020, 06:25:29 AM »

No tunnelling. ...

So what is IP: 10.25.60.1  Hop #2 ???

TO me looks like LOCAL network IP same as my Open VPN (local) IP: 10.17.232.1 Hop #2

Edit:

Got answer here: https://superuser.com/questions/777866/why-is-tracert-showing-a-private-ip-address-right-after-my-router-even-though-i
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 07:46:03 AM by zvirus »
Logged
Virgin M200 200/20

With QoS turned ON...

Alex Atkin UK

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1165
    • My Broadband History
Re: FTTP latency.... higher than on VDSL(FTTC)
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2020, 02:17:50 PM »

It's RFOG (radio frequency over glass).
It's still Virgin DOCSIS from the cabinet.

I'm on a brand new Virgin FTTP rollout and the latency is worse than VDSL2.
I was expecting it to be worse though.
I purchased it for the higher speed.

DOCSIS just has higher latency than VDSL2 in most cases (when pinging the same location).

That's interesting, I never knew that.  I only know one person with Virgin and his latency always seemed to be really good, I guess its just the nature of how his part of the network is laid out?

I presume then that this setup still has the same contention issues as DOCSIS over Coax then?  Although I'm honestly not sure how that compares to PONs, I'd imagine DOCSIS 3 makes them much more comparable than in the past where DSL seemed to be less contended.  Heck, did VDSL change that?
Logged
Exchange: INTAKE (ECI DSLAM) Router: pfSense (i5-7200U) ISP/Modems: Zen (Home Hub 5A running OpenWrt) + Plusnet (VMG-3925-B10B) WiFi: Ubiquiti nanoHD

CarlT

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1589
  • Next generation network design and deployment
Re: FTTP latency.... higher than on VDSL(FTTC)
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2020, 04:06:48 PM »

So what is IP: 10.25.60.1  Hop #2 ???

TO me looks like LOCAL network IP same as my Open VPN (local) IP: 10.17.232.1 Hop #2

Edit:

Got answer here: https://superuser.com/questions/777866/why-is-tracert-showing-a-private-ip-address-right-after-my-router-even-though-i

The answer is sadly nonsense.

Your modem connects to a 10.x.x.x address that sits on a virtual interface within the CMTS.

Your router, whether incorporated into the modem or your own device with the Hub in modem mode, connects via a public IP address.

Neither of these map to physical ports on the CMTS, people can be on different line cards to you and connect to the same addresses.

There is no IP link between your modem and the line card interface it goes to a virtual interface.

The CMTS responds via the 10.x address the modem talks to. It could respond via a public IP address if the software were configured to do so, just the 10.x address responding is how the software is written to respond.

Your device just sends a packet that will trigger a response from a single hop and that hop is privately addressed.

Modems pull an IP address from the 10.x address pool and use this to talk to the CMTS for their own purposes only. The traffic from devices doesn't go via the 10.x addresses.

Packets both privately and publicly addressed flow between subscribers and CMTS. You can confirm this by tracerouting to the default gateway of your firewall/router - it'll be a x.x.x.1 address and will respond as the same hop as the 10.x address.

I'm not going to do diagrams but as a case in point

2.208.28.86.in-addr.arpa   name = cpc114124-lee213-2-0-cust1.7-1.cable.virginm.net

Cust 1 - 1st usable IP address in the scope, so it talks to;

1.208.28.86.in-addr.arpa   name = cpc114124-lee213-2-0-gw.7-1.cable.virginm.net

Which is reachable via the public Internet, hop before the cable modems, naturally.

 9  leed-core-2a-ae4-0.network.virginmedia.net (82.15.94.254)  20.918 ms  16.871 ms  20.742 ms
10  lee2-cmts-13-tenge413.network.virginmedia.net (62.252.224.110)  17.551 ms  18.795 ms  18.494 ms
11  cpc114124-lee213-2-0-cust1.7-1.cable.virginm.net (86.28.208.2)  24.840 ms  28.203 ms  26.579 ms

 9  leed-core-2a-ae4-0.network.virginmedia.net (82.15.94.254)  19.500 ms  16.692 ms  17.638 ms
10  cpc114124-lee213-2-0-gw.7-1.cable.virginm.net (86.28.208.1)  17.459 ms  18.176 ms  18.987 ms
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 04:15:42 PM by CarlT »
Logged
WiFi: Nighthawk® AX12 RAX120 - 5Gb uplink
Routing: Ubiquiti UDM Pro - 10Gb uplink
Switching: 2 * Mikrotik CRS305-1G-4S-IN, 10Gb uplinks, various cheap and cheerful
ONT: Huawei 1+1
Exchange: Wakefield
ISP: BT Full Fibre 900. Yes, BT, I know.

zvirus

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 47
Re: FTTP latency.... higher than on VDSL(FTTC)
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2020, 07:59:16 PM »

The answer is sadly nonsense.

Your modem connects to a 10.x.x.x address that sits on a virtual interface within the CMTS.

Your router, whether incorporated into the modem or your own device with the Hub in modem mode, connects via a public IP address.

Neither of these map to physical ports on the CMTS, people can be on different line cards to you and connect to the same addresses.

There is no IP link between your modem and the line card interface it goes to a virtual interface.

The CMTS responds via the 10.x address the modem talks to. It could respond via a public IP address if the software were configured to do so, just the 10.x address responding is how the software is written to respond.

Your device just sends a packet that will trigger a response from a single hop and that hop is privately addressed.

Modems pull an IP address from the 10.x address pool and use this to talk to the CMTS for their own purposes only. The traffic from devices doesn't go via the 10.x addresses.

Packets both privately and publicly addressed flow between subscribers and CMTS. You can confirm this by tracerouting to the default gateway of your firewall/router - it'll be a x.x.x.1 address and will respond as the same hop as the 10.x address.

I'm not going to do diagrams but as a case in point

2.208.28.86.in-addr.arpa   name = cpc114124-lee213-2-0-cust1.7-1.cable.virginm.net

Cust 1 - 1st usable IP address in the scope, so it talks to;

1.208.28.86.in-addr.arpa   name = cpc114124-lee213-2-0-gw.7-1.cable.virginm.net

Which is reachable via the public Internet, hop before the cable modems, naturally.

 9  leed-core-2a-ae4-0.network.virginmedia.net (82.15.94.254)  20.918 ms  16.871 ms  20.742 ms
10  lee2-cmts-13-tenge413.network.virginmedia.net (62.252.224.110)  17.551 ms  18.795 ms  18.494 ms
11  cpc114124-lee213-2-0-cust1.7-1.cable.virginm.net (86.28.208.2)  24.840 ms  28.203 ms  26.579 ms

 9  leed-core-2a-ae4-0.network.virginmedia.net (82.15.94.254)  19.500 ms  16.692 ms  17.638 ms
10  cpc114124-lee213-2-0-gw.7-1.cable.virginm.net (86.28.208.1)  17.459 ms  18.176 ms  18.987 ms

I know how to play a double bass and whats Amaj7 or Em7b5 chord and few more... this is beyond my comprehension...

Thanks anyway as some might find it useful! :)

Logged
Virgin M200 200/20

With QoS turned ON...

Alex Atkin UK

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1165
    • My Broadband History
Re: FTTP latency.... higher than on VDSL(FTTC)
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2020, 11:44:20 PM »

I know how to play a double bass and whats Amaj7 or Em7b5 chord and few more... this is beyond my comprehension...

Thanks anyway as some might find it useful! :)

I'm very confused too.  All I can think is its a misconfiguration/bug, as if that hop is supposed to be invisible it should neither be reducing the TTL nor responding as if its an actual hop.
Logged
Exchange: INTAKE (ECI DSLAM) Router: pfSense (i5-7200U) ISP/Modems: Zen (Home Hub 5A running OpenWrt) + Plusnet (VMG-3925-B10B) WiFi: Ubiquiti nanoHD

zvirus

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 47
Re: FTTP latency.... higher than on VDSL(FTTC)
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2020, 05:42:03 AM »

Exactly!    ;D
Logged
Virgin M200 200/20

With QoS turned ON...

CarlT

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1589
  • Next generation network design and deployment
Re: FTTP latency.... higher than on VDSL(FTTC)
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2020, 01:21:51 PM »

I'm very confused too.  All I can think is its a misconfiguration/bug, as if that hop is supposed to be invisible it should neither be reducing the TTL nor responding as if its an actual hop.

When you're talking to a virtual interface rather than a physical one the device can respond to you via whatever address it sees fit to.

It's appropriate for it to be reducing the TTL. It's an IP hop.
Logged
WiFi: Nighthawk® AX12 RAX120 - 5Gb uplink
Routing: Ubiquiti UDM Pro - 10Gb uplink
Switching: 2 * Mikrotik CRS305-1G-4S-IN, 10Gb uplinks, various cheap and cheerful
ONT: Huawei 1+1
Exchange: Wakefield
ISP: BT Full Fibre 900. Yes, BT, I know.

Alex Atkin UK

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1165
    • My Broadband History
Re: FTTP latency.... higher than on VDSL(FTTC)
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2020, 05:22:23 AM »

When you're talking to a virtual interface rather than a physical one the device can respond to you via whatever address it sees fit to.

It's appropriate for it to be reducing the TTL. It's an IP hop.

I guess its just hard to wrap your head around when you're not used to that kind of virtual interface.

I'd always figured this part of the network was always seen (or more accurately, not seen) as a bridge.  Is there a detailed explanation anywhere of how this is actually functioning to get it straight in my head?
Logged
Exchange: INTAKE (ECI DSLAM) Router: pfSense (i5-7200U) ISP/Modems: Zen (Home Hub 5A running OpenWrt) + Plusnet (VMG-3925-B10B) WiFi: Ubiquiti nanoHD

CarlT

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1589
  • Next generation network design and deployment
Re: FTTP latency.... higher than on VDSL(FTTC)
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2020, 02:37:45 PM »

Think of it as an SVI with multiple IP addresses. That plus Google for shiny diagrams should help.
Logged
WiFi: Nighthawk® AX12 RAX120 - 5Gb uplink
Routing: Ubiquiti UDM Pro - 10Gb uplink
Switching: 2 * Mikrotik CRS305-1G-4S-IN, 10Gb uplinks, various cheap and cheerful
ONT: Huawei 1+1
Exchange: Wakefield
ISP: BT Full Fibre 900. Yes, BT, I know.
Pages: [1] 2
 

anything