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[niemand]

The same could be said when we were talking about a certain Leeds cabinet that was stuck on ADSL.  All the customers were paying the asking price, why upgrade it?

The upgrade paid for itself in terms of cumulative revenue very quickly as Openreach received line rental and FTTC revenues where previously they received line rental only. We are talking about Openreach here, their customers are CPs, not end users, and those CPs were okay with the lack of vectoring.

It also reduced the fault rate due to the length of copper loops and their being run right at their limits.

By the time the second Huawei was installed the first one had pretty much paid for itself.

Vectoring wouldn't bring in additional revenue and would not have much effect, if any, on fault rates as crosstalk's impact is allowed for in estimates and of course vectoring doesn't impact REIN, SHINE or any other outside ingress / line fault.

So no, the same couldn't be said of the two.

At this point I made the mistake of reading the rest of the post.

Essentially what you saying its fine if customers are ignorant of the issue.  However you werent so defensive of the industry when you was campaigning.  I just wished you was consistent.  As I thought given your own frustrations in the past you would be a bit more understanding.  I do agree the business case is weak now, but sometimes companies will make decisions based on just making the service better if they think their reputation boost from it is worth it.  Although I think the time has passed for that on vectoring.  My argument is more about what I think they should have done years ago.

Are you seriously equating the gains from vectoring, in your case from 67-ish Mbit/s to perhaps 80, to the gains from a move from 0.5 - 1.5 Mb/s ADSL to 100% > 24Mb VDSL?

I wasn't defensive of the industry because they were wrong. It was proven they were wrong. Then it was emphasised when Virgin Media arrived and saw strong take up. That cabinet in Leeds is now being upgraded to FTTP right now, with the first homes live including my former property.

Hardly anyone cares about vectoring, hardly anyone cared about it before, and your equating perhaps a 10-15% performance increase to what was seen on Hunslet 82 with the ADSL to VDSL move, in my case 1.3 Mbit/s download, 128 kbit/s upload to 80/20 which eventually settled at 67/20 with crosstalk, is laughable.

If anyone cared about vectoring the industry would've asked Openreach about it. You'd have seen much more mention of it in consultation documents. You didn't. Because outside of narrow audiences like this one people weren't really that bothered, hence few complaints to ISPs hence few complaints to CPs.

EDIT: PS, original poster, your issue is not going to be helped much by vectoring. Your line is very long which is the main issue.

[Chrysalis]

I agree on your Leeds cabinet and personally have no issue with your campaign either but it was more that someone who disagreed could have made that argument. 

It is what it is, I also took measures to get my cabinet moved to VDSL via my MP, so I did pushing as well to make them see sense.

The issue I have with these consultations is that its mostly between openreach and the CP's so they dont necessarily reflect consumer demand, and obviously consumers cannot demand something they dont know exists they typically need educating first.  We already know many people want faster broadband connections, thats why there is loads of speedtesters, and ofcom stepping in for the estimated speed stuff, so demand is there for speed, consumers dont care how that speed is delivered.

From a CP perspective, because like you said they would have trouble charging more for a vectored VDSL service, the tech probably didnt excite them, so they didnt ask openreach for it, and then certain people see that as a non demand.  But CP's are not consumers.  You see the same thing in companies time and time again, guy at the bottom has an idea, feedback whatever, but the message rarely makes it to the guy at the top as it has to pass multiple stages of triage (management levels) to get there, and if it gets there it could be changed significantly by the time it gets there.  I think g.inp is a good example of this, consumers want the tech, CP's see it as a nuisance because of CPE that needs replacing and the short term hassle involved, and hence the previous trial getting abandoned because its the CP's not consumers who are openreach customers.  On the current trial many CPs are not taking part even with their customers asking them.

Consumers want more speed means there is demand for vectoring albeit indirectly.  The speed boost when applied properly can generate more revenue as I stated with the bonded 30mhz service. 55 to 80 has a tiered price difference, crosstalk can drop 80mbit lines down to the 50s in sync speed, so there is your loss of revenue.  But 99% of people have no idea what vectoring is, they are used to been told by tech support, that crosstalk is outside of their control its "normal" for vdsl, it cannot be fixed blah blah blah, so they cannot ask for something that doesnt exist to them, instead they just drop to lower tier product or move to cable/fttp.

[niemand]

This is nothing to do with consumer education.

If customers were complaining to their providers about speeds dropping over time the CPs would be aware it's crosstalk and raise it with Openreach.

The only time people's ignorance of anything comes into play is when you're expecting Openreach to listen to them directly.

CPs didn't receive the complaints so didn't have the fault calls. They didn't raise faults or queries with Openreach in town so vectoring didn't get onto the wish list.

I would take a moment to point out that OP in this thread wants vectoring even though it'll do virtually nothing for them as their line is very long. What proportion of end users are appropriately knowledgeable to be able to provide worthwhile feedback to Openreach?

The vast majority of consumers want 1.21 jiggawatts of broadband for £5 a century.

We have been through this one repeatedly. The system is fine as it is.

[Chrysalis]

people have been complaining to cp's about speed's dropping for years carl you have a lot of faith in tier 1 tech support.