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[chris3234]

i take it bt arnt bother bringing vectoring out to more cabs as it seems to have stoped and not had much notice for ages?

it would be nice to have it on my line to help 16mb on a upto 80 conecting is annoying more so when there a fttc cab around 150m away  but im conected to much further away the that ( good cable work there bt)

[niemand]

Correct.

[chris3234]

Correct.

probally the decision of sombody high up given people more reason to "upgrade" to a faster more expensive service

[j0hn]

probally the decision of sombody high up given people more reason to "upgrade" to a faster more expensive service

He means correct, they aren't deploying Vectoring.

I'd be astonished if they ever did.

[chris3234]

He means correct, they aren't deploying Vectoring.

If be astonished if they ever did.

?
what they allready did on some lines




its bad enough having to wait 2 and half years after they installed the fttc cab to be able to take the service due do having a estimite below 15mb meaning they did want the avrage speed to drop so wouldnt allow those on slow speed to take fttc broadband

[Chrysalis]

those are in subsidy areas, not on the commercial rollout.

[j0hn]

?
what they allready did on some lines

Openreach haven't funded any Vectoring apart from their trials AFAIK.

The only cabinets with Vectoring are BDUK funded cabinets, and only specific cabinets to increase SuperFast (24Mb) coverage.

I've never seen Vectoring on a commercially funded cabinet.

I could count on 2 hands the number of UK users I've seen on this forum with Vectoring.

[niemand]

Openreach are busy with FTTP.

Vectoring costs money for little benefit.

[tiffy]

Vectoring costs money for little benefit.

Little benefit to whom ?

There is absolutely no doubt that vectoring technology would have substantially helped the vast majority, if not all, FTTC customers combat speed loss due to cross talk in the copper cable infrastructure.

No financial benefit to BTw/BT/OR as they could not easily claw back the cost of the hardware/software upgrades that would have been required to implement vectoring, it would appear that G.Fast roll out was given preference as this service would be "chargable" and implementation costs could be recouped up to a point.
Not sure regarding vectoring implementation on ECI DSLAM's, could have been a similar complication to G.Inp and another factor in the equasion ?

Even though the copper line length limitations which would make G.Fast service available to a very small percentage of FTTC customers was known from the outset, BT opted to proceed with the technology, little doubt this was a bad decision.

I agree, vectoring on a larger scale will never now happen as FTTP is too far advanced, however, a lot more customers are likely to suffer from cross talk issues as the VDSL service uptake increases with migration from ADSL before FTTP service becomes available/affordable to all.

Edit: Typo correction. 

[niemand]

Little benefit to whom ?

No financial benefit to BTw/BT/OR as they could not easily claw back the cost of the hardware/software upgrades that would have been required to implement vectoring

You answer it yourself. Nothing in it for Openreach, especially with how many people use the 40/55 Mb products rather than 80.

[Chrysalis]

The benefit of vectoring is quality of the service, a company taking pride in what they offer would see it as a reasonable investment, the particular benefit is not e.g. having line performance vary as much as 50% of capacity.  Isp's outside of the UK found a business case for it.

The problem here is that openreach, are very heavy on the financial ROI, and they are been strangled by the regulator, making these sort of decisions get made.

The actual deployment costs of vectoring are very low, it only really becomes of any significant cost in situations where you have multiple cabinet operators, but in the UK we only have one.

If we deployed vectoring alongside 30mhz vdsl2, would I be spending more money on broadband, given there is no affordable FTTP here, and cable is a oversubscribed mess, I think there is a fair possibility I may have paid for bonded vdsl2 30 which I expect would have achieved 200-300mbit/sec.  For that openreach would have me paying two line rentals, plus whatever premium the extra speed demanded.

The tech they chose instead, has a very tiny radius around each cabinet, and as a result more of a limited appeal to customers.

FTTP trumps both, but FTTP is meaningless when they decide they dont want to put it in your area.

[j0hn]

Not sure regarding vectoring implementation on ECI DSLAM's, could have been a similar complication to G.Inp and another factor in the equasion ?

Not similar complications, worse.
The ECI DSLAM's are capable of G.INP, though downstream only.
The ECI DSLAM's don't do system level Vectoring and would need completely replaced.

The benefit of vectoring is quality of the service, a company taking pride in what they offer would see it as a reasonable investment

The problem here is that openreach, are very heavy on the financial ROI

They have a duty to their share holders to get a good ROI.
You can't pay dividends in pride.

The actual deployment costs of vectoring are very low

What's your definition of very low?

The entire ECI estate would need replacing.
The Huawei MA5616's need numerous parts replaced/upgraded (linecards, a new controller board, a new backplane and a bigger power board).
The MA5603T's might also need new line cards, possibly other parts upgrading.

I'm not 100% on this part but I think only the Huawei MA5603T's do Node Level Vectoring.

So any PCP that needs 2 DSLAM's would need the larger Huawei cabinets.
That means some AIO and smaller Huawei cabinets would need replacing.

To me that isn't a very low deployment cost.

If we deployed vectoring alongside 30mhz vdsl2, would I be spending more money on broadband, given there is no affordable FTTP here, and cable is a oversubscribed mess, I think there is a fair possibility I may have paid for bonded vdsl2 30 which I expect would have achieved 200-300mbit/sec.  For that openreach would have me paying two line rentals, plus whatever premium the extra speed demanded.

Profile 30a isn't cross compatible with profile 17a.
You can't Vector across both.

[niemand]

The benefit of vectoring is quality of the service, a company taking pride in what they offer would see it as a reasonable investment, the particular benefit is not e.g. having line performance vary as much as 50% of capacity.  Isp's outside of the UK found a business case for it.

They delivered the service their customers wanted at a price point their end users were willing to pay.

[Chrysalis]

..

John not all shareholders expect dividends

Also you can get good ROI without been too aggressive.  No need to chase every penny of profit.

If you look at the cost of the VDSL rollout, compare the cost of the fibre, to the cost of the street furniture, you will see its very lopsided.

If you think a vectoring board is expensive, I dread to think what you consider the cost of 1km of ducted fibre is.

Also its not all net cost, savings on maintenance, support, as well as any gains from selling off old equipment.

j0hn I have a request if you dont mind, whats your position in the broadband industry as you do consistently defend it, I just want to know if its ok.

[Chrysalis]

They delivered the service their customers wanted at a price point their end users were willing to pay.

The same could be said when we were talking about a certain Leeds cabinet that was stuck on ADSL.  All the customers were paying the asking price, why upgrade it?

Essentially what you saying its fine if customers are ignorant of the issue.  However you werent so defensive of the industry when you was campaigning.  I just wished you was consistent.  As I thought given your own frustrations in the past you would be a bit more understanding.  I do agree the business case is weak now, but sometimes companies will make decisions based on just making the service better if they think their reputation boost from it is worth it.  Although I think the time has passed for that on vectoring.  My argument is more about what I think they should have done years ago.