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Author Topic: Switch over from PN to Zen issue  (Read 12513 times)

N0STIE

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #60 on: February 20, 2020, 02:08:50 AM »

GEA via TalkTalk Business.

Does that mean I will also be connected via Talk Talk bussines when I migrate to Zen's GEA?
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #61 on: February 20, 2020, 09:59:19 AM »

Does that mean I will also be connected via Talk Talk bussines when I migrate to Zen's GEA?

If there is no Zen at your exchange but there is Talk Talk, I'd expect so, but I'm no expert on this.  ;)
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tommy45

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2020, 08:59:56 AM »

If there is no Zen at your exchange but there is Talk Talk, I'd expect so, but I'm no expert on this.  ;)
I wasn't aware of them using talk talk,for data transit, my exchange has both TT and ZEN GEA  but I'm thankfully connected via WMBC for me the latency is lower and it isn't affected by this single threaded throughput issue that seems to keep rearing it head for some of their GEA customers the only downside is the BT bras IP profile that shaves around a 1mbps off the max possible throughput of 76mbps if you have the full 79999kbps sync rate
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N0STIE

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #63 on: February 23, 2020, 01:00:00 PM »

I wasn't aware of them using talk talk,for data transit, my exchange has both TT and ZEN GEA  but I'm thankfully connected via WMBC for me the latency is lower and it isn't affected by this single threaded throughput issue that seems to keep rearing it head for some of their GEA customers the only downside is the BT bras IP profile that shaves around a 1mbps off the max possible throughput of 76mbps if you have the full 79999kbps sync rate

My order has been placed to be migrated to GEA. Now reading those posts I am not sure whether I should csncell it and stay on WBMC or migrate to GEA. My latency is currently at 10-11ms and no guarantee it will be the same or lower but it could as well be higher
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N0STIE

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2020, 12:04:25 AM »

I simply don't understand how come my friend's ISP is enta.net, his base latency is 10ms, mine is 10ms as well, but his latency to various european servers is around 10ms lower despite exactly same routing??

Anyone can explain?
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #65 on: February 24, 2020, 02:07:17 AM »

I simply don't understand how come my friend's ISP is enta.net, his base latency is 10ms, mine is 10ms as well, but his latency to various european servers is around 10ms lower despite exactly same routing??

Anyone can explain?

I gave up trying to understand routing long ago, but jitter/latency variance can confuse things further.

eg.

Code: [Select]
1  losubs.subs.bng1.th-lon.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.17)  15.563 ms  13.406 ms  13.363 ms
 2  ae1-177.cr2.th-lon.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.38)  13.863 ms  13.899 ms  14.631 ms
 3  ip81-59.fastly-gw1.lonap.net (5.57.81.59)  13.824 ms  13.874 ms  13.677 ms
 4  151.101.192.81 (151.101.192.81)  13.133 ms  13.436 ms  14.594 ms

Code: [Select]
PING bbc.co.uk (151.101.192.81) from 82.69.11.30: 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 151.101.192.81: icmp_seq=0 ttl=61 time=13.552 ms
64 bytes from 151.101.192.81: icmp_seq=1 ttl=61 time=14.277 ms
64 bytes from 151.101.192.81: icmp_seq=2 ttl=61 time=15.706 ms
64 bytes from 151.101.192.81: icmp_seq=3 ttl=61 time=13.470 ms
64 bytes from 151.101.192.81: icmp_seq=4 ttl=61 time=15.165 ms
64 bytes from 151.101.192.81: icmp_seq=5 ttl=61 time=13.324 ms
64 bytes from 151.101.192.81: icmp_seq=6 ttl=61 time=15.840 ms
64 bytes from 151.101.192.81: icmp_seq=7 ttl=61 time=16.392 ms
64 bytes from 151.101.192.81: icmp_seq=8 ttl=61 time=14.436 ms
64 bytes from 151.101.192.81: icmp_seq=9 ttl=61 time=15.267 ms

--- bbc.co.uk ping statistics ---
10 packets transmitted, 10 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 13.324/14.743/16.392/1.033 ms

One thing is that sometimes the route might be different to what you think, as there can be tunneling that wont show up on traceroute.  Plus their links could just be less loaded, maybe have a different priority for ICMP/UDP packets?

Your own routers behaviour can reflect in ping and traceroute.  I believe traceroute also only reflects what is happening on the outbound connection, the route back to you could be different.

eg. To my VPS

Code: [Select]
1  losubs.subs.bng1.th-lon.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.17)  13.407 ms  13.210 ms  13.767 ms
 2  ae1-177.cr2.th-lon.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.38)  13.271 ms  13.287 ms  13.499 ms
 3  lonap-gw2.mythic-beasts.com (5.57.80.222)  14.472 ms  13.810 ms  13.716 ms
 4  ptp-r-hex-b-10G.router-mer-b.mythic-beasts.com (93.93.133.23)  13.460 ms  14.491 ms  15.626 ms
 5  csdprojects.co.uk (176.126.247.130)  15.000 ms  13.968 ms  13.373 ms

From my VPS

Code: [Select]
1  131.spine-20G.router-mer-a.mythic-beasts.com (93.93.134.63)  0.125 ms  0.093 ms  0.090 ms
 2  ptp-r-mer-a-10G.router-sov-a.mythic-beasts.com (93.93.133.32)  0.093 ms  0.114 ms  0.114 ms
 3  linx-1.zen.net.uk (195.66.224.158)  0.410 ms  0.455 ms  0.457 ms
 4  v176.subs.bng1.th-lon.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.37)  0.448 ms  0.447 ms  0.474 ms
 5   14.744 ms  14.868 ms  15.585 ms
« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 02:18:09 AM by Alex Atkin UK »
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N0STIE

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #66 on: February 25, 2020, 12:02:29 AM »

That is actually interesting Alex. I thought the inbound routing would be exactly the same but mirrored as latency does not seem to vary in most cases?

I am curious where is this server located? In France or Germany?

Tracing route to 151.80.12.9 over a maximum of 30 hops

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.0.1
  2    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  vt1.cor1.lond2.ptn.zen.net.uk [51.148.72.23]
  3    11 ms    11 ms    10 ms  ae-3.pe1.ixn-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.2]
  4    11 ms    11 ms    10 ms  ae-1.pe1.thn-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.94]
  5    11 ms    10 ms    10 ms  vl-50.ae-6.cr1.th-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.57]
  6     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  7    15 ms    14 ms    14 ms  be103.gra-g2-nc5.fr.eu [213.251.128.64]
  8    13 ms    13 ms    13 ms  be7.gra-vac1-a75.fr.eu [213.186.32.167]
  9    13 ms    13 ms    13 ms  gra-vac1-a75-1-firewall.fr.eu [178.33.99.150]
 10    13 ms    13 ms    14 ms  gra-vac1-a75-2-shield.fr.eu [178.33.99.137]
 11    14 ms    13 ms    14 ms  gra-vac1-a75-3.fr.eu [178.33.99.149]
 12     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 13    18 ms    17 ms    17 ms  vl1248.rbx-d2-a75.fr.eu [37.187.231.252]
 14    27 ms    27 ms    27 ms  vl1251.sbg-g2-a75.fr.eu [37.187.232.29]
 15    28 ms    28 ms    29 ms  be50-7.sbg-4b-a9.fr.eu [188.165.9.76]
 16    27 ms    27 ms    28 ms  ns3030614.ip-151-80-110.eu [151.80.110.120]
 17    27 ms    27 ms    26 ms  151.80.12.9

Trace complete.
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burakkucat

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #67 on: February 25, 2020, 12:29:39 AM »

Perhaps this will be of interest to you . . .

[bcat ~]$ whois 151.80.12.9
[Querying whois.ripe.net]
[whois.ripe.net]
% This is the RIPE Database query service.
% The objects are in RPSL format.
%
% The RIPE Database is subject to Terms and Conditions.
% See http://www.ripe.net/db/support/db-terms-conditions.pdf

% Note: this output has been filtered.
%       To receive output for a database update, use the "-B" flag.

% Information related to '151.80.12.0 - 151.80.12.63'

% No abuse contact registered for 151.80.12.0 - 151.80.12.63

inetnum:        151.80.12.0 - 151.80.12.63
netname:        OVH_78999210
descr:          OVH Static IP
country:        PL
org:            ORG-NG87-RIPE
admin-c:        OTC12-RIPE
tech-c:         OTC12-RIPE
status:         LEGACY
mnt-by:         OVH-MNT
created:        2015-03-18T15:06:20Z
last-modified:  2015-03-18T15:06:20Z
source:         RIPE

organisation:   ORG-NG87-RIPE
org-name:       Net-Speak.pl Grupa
org-type:       OTHER
address:        Sloneczna 8
address:        46-300 Olesno
address:        PL
phone:          +48.604779021
mnt-ref:        OVH-MNT
mnt-by:         OVH-MNT
created:        2015-03-18T15:06:03Z
last-modified:  2017-10-30T16:37:56Z
source:         RIPE # Filtered

role:           OVH PL Technical Contact
address:        OVH Sp. z o. o.
address:        ul. Swobodna 1
address:        54-088 Wroclaw
address:        Poland
admin-c:        OK217-RIPE
tech-c:         GM84-RIPE
nic-hdl:        OTC12-RIPE
abuse-mailbox:  abuse@ovh.net
mnt-by:         OVH-MNT
created:        2009-09-16T16:09:56Z
last-modified:  2019-08-08T07:50:01Z
source:         RIPE # Filtered

% Information related to '151.80.0.0/16AS16276'

route:          151.80.0.0/16
descr:          OVH
origin:         AS16276
mnt-by:         OVH-MNT
created:        2015-01-22T17:55:49Z
last-modified:  2015-01-22T17:55:49Z
source:         RIPE

% This query was served by the RIPE Database Query Service version 1.96 (HEREFORD)


[bcat ~]$
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #68 on: February 25, 2020, 02:52:57 AM »

That is actually interesting Alex. I thought the inbound routing would be exactly the same but mirrored as latency does not seem to vary in most cases?

Traceroute relies on every packet to the same destination taking the same route, if it doesn't then it can be completely wrong due to how it works.

Quote
Traceroute sends packets with TTL values that gradually increase from packet to packet, starting with TTL value of one. Routers decrement TTL values of packets by one when routing and discard packets whose TTL value has reached zero, returning the ICMP error message ICMP Time Exceeded.

This is why you can sometimes get some weird loops where it seems to pass through the same gateway twice, as that particular packet took more hops to reach the same gateway.

For example, as I have both Plusnet and Zen WAN links load balanced, I have seen really freaky traceroutes before where it jumps between Plusnet and Zen gateways in the same trace.
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spaace

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #69 on: February 25, 2020, 12:04:31 PM »

That is actually interesting Alex. I thought the inbound routing would be exactly the same but mirrored as latency does not seem to vary in most cases?

I am curious where is this server located? In France or Germany?

Tracing route to 151.80.12.9 over a maximum of 30 hops

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.0.1
  2    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  vt1.cor1.lond2.ptn.zen.net.uk [51.148.72.23]
  3    11 ms    11 ms    10 ms  ae-3.pe1.ixn-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.2]
  4    11 ms    11 ms    10 ms  ae-1.pe1.thn-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.94]
  5    11 ms    10 ms    10 ms  vl-50.ae-6.cr1.th-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.57]
  6     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  7    15 ms    14 ms    14 ms  be103.gra-g2-nc5.fr.eu [213.251.128.64]
  8    13 ms    13 ms    13 ms  be7.gra-vac1-a75.fr.eu [213.186.32.167]
  9    13 ms    13 ms    13 ms  gra-vac1-a75-1-firewall.fr.eu [178.33.99.150]
 10    13 ms    13 ms    14 ms  gra-vac1-a75-2-shield.fr.eu [178.33.99.137]
 11    14 ms    13 ms    14 ms  gra-vac1-a75-3.fr.eu [178.33.99.149]
 12     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 13    18 ms    17 ms    17 ms  vl1248.rbx-d2-a75.fr.eu [37.187.231.252]
 14    27 ms    27 ms    27 ms  vl1251.sbg-g2-a75.fr.eu [37.187.232.29]
 15    28 ms    28 ms    29 ms  be50-7.sbg-4b-a9.fr.eu [188.165.9.76]
 16    27 ms    27 ms    28 ms  ns3030614.ip-151-80-110.eu [151.80.110.120]
 17    27 ms    27 ms    26 ms  151.80.12.9

Trace complete.

it is in France, what game is you play? some games have the ability to use proxies which can affect pings quite dramatically.

for what it is worth i get the same trace as you on a completely different ISP

Tracing route to 151.80.12.9 over a maximum of 30 hops

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.1.1
  2     7 ms     7 ms     7 ms  bb01.tw140-l6.lon.gb.voicehost.co.uk [37.157.53.5]
  3     7 ms     7 ms     7 ms  te-0-1-0.cr01.tn19-f9.lon.gb.voicehost.co.uk [37.157.53.33]
  4     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  5    10 ms    11 ms    11 ms  be103.gra-g1-nc5.fr.eu [91.121.215.178]
  6    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  be5.gra-vac1-a75.fr.eu [213.186.32.165]
  7    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  gra-vac1-a75-1-firewall.fr.eu [178.33.99.150]
  8    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  gra-vac1-a75-2-shield.fr.eu [178.33.99.137]
  9    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  gra-vac1-a75-3.fr.eu [178.33.99.149]
 10     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 11    15 ms    14 ms    14 ms  vl1248.rbx-d2-a75.fr.eu [37.187.231.252]
 12    24 ms    24 ms    24 ms  vl1251.sbg-g2-a75.fr.eu [37.187.232.29]
 13    26 ms    27 ms    26 ms  be50-7.sbg-4a-a9.fr.eu [188.165.9.72]
 14    28 ms    24 ms    24 ms  ns3030614.ip-151-80-110.eu [151.80.110.120]
 15    24 ms    24 ms    24 ms  151.80.12.9
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 12:11:16 PM by spaace »
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N0STIE

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #70 on: February 25, 2020, 12:34:57 PM »

it is in France, what game is you play? some games have the ability to use proxies which can affect pings quite dramatically.

for what it is worth i get the same trace as you on a completely different ISP

Tracing route to 151.80.12.9 over a maximum of 30 hops

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.1.1
  2     7 ms     7 ms     7 ms  bb01.tw140-l6.lon.gb.voicehost.co.uk [37.157.53.5]
  3     7 ms     7 ms     7 ms  te-0-1-0.cr01.tn19-f9.lon.gb.voicehost.co.uk [37.157.53.33]
  4     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  5    10 ms    11 ms    11 ms  be103.gra-g1-nc5.fr.eu [91.121.215.178]
  6    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  be5.gra-vac1-a75.fr.eu [213.186.32.165]
  7    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  gra-vac1-a75-1-firewall.fr.eu [178.33.99.150]
  8    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  gra-vac1-a75-2-shield.fr.eu [178.33.99.137]
  9    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  gra-vac1-a75-3.fr.eu [178.33.99.149]
 10     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 11    15 ms    14 ms    14 ms  vl1248.rbx-d2-a75.fr.eu [37.187.231.252]
 12    24 ms    24 ms    24 ms  vl1251.sbg-g2-a75.fr.eu [37.187.232.29]
 13    26 ms    27 ms    26 ms  be50-7.sbg-4a-a9.fr.eu [188.165.9.72]
 14    28 ms    24 ms    24 ms  ns3030614.ip-151-80-110.eu [151.80.110.120]
 15    24 ms    24 ms    24 ms  151.80.12.9

It is a voice server
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Chrysalis

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #71 on: February 25, 2020, 12:55:32 PM »

traceroute to 151.80.12.9 (151.80.12.9), 64 hops max, 48 byte packets
 1  215.53.155.90.in-addr.arpa (90.155.53.215)  7.427 ms  7.718 ms  7.125 ms
 2  k-aimless.thn.aa.net.uk (90.155.53.101)  7.435 ms  7.436 ms  7.736 ms
 3  * * *
 4  be103.gra-g2-nc5.fr.eu (213.251.128.64)  11.527 ms  12.683 ms  11.475 ms
 5  be7.gra-vac1-a75.fr.eu (213.186.32.167)  10.222 ms  10.493 ms  10.439 ms
 6  gra-vac1-a75-1-firewall.fr.eu (178.33.99.150)  10.506 ms  10.482 ms  10.461 ms
 7  gra-vac1-a75-2-shield.fr.eu (178.33.99.137)  10.522 ms  10.205 ms  10.474 ms
 8  gra-vac1-a75-3.fr.eu (178.33.99.149)  10.485 ms  10.725 ms  10.460 ms
 9  * * *
10  vl1247.rbx-g1-a75.fr.eu (37.187.231.234)  14.633 ms  14.709 ms  14.929 ms
11  vl1250.sbg-d1-a75.fr.eu (37.187.232.27)  24.228 ms  24.195 ms  24.462 ms
12  be50-5.sbg-4b-a9.fr.eu (188.165.9.74)  25.257 ms  25.433 ms  24.746 ms
13  ns3030614.ip-151-80-110.eu (151.80.110.120)  24.457 ms  24.676 ms  24.502 ms
14  151.80.12.9 (151.80.12.9)  24.242 ms  24.221 ms  24.218 ms

My server in France by comparison is 17ms, is this one in southern France?

Mine has took a jump though because it used to be just 12ms, but now the routing seems have changed and the latency is higher as a result.
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N0STIE

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #72 on: February 25, 2020, 02:14:36 PM »

May I ask where are you in the country @spaace @Chrysalis ?
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Chrysalis

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #73 on: February 25, 2020, 02:48:45 PM »

east midlands.
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spaace

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #74 on: February 25, 2020, 03:24:07 PM »

May I ask where are you in the country @spaace @Chrysalis ?

also east midlands - south leicestershire

10  vl1247.rbx-g1-a75.fr.eu (37.187.231.234)  14.633 ms  14.709 ms  14.929 ms
11  vl1250.sbg-d1-a75.fr.eu (37.187.232.27)  24.228 ms  24.195 ms  24.462 ms

maybe the SBG in that second hop is Strasbourg which is quite far away. but we all get similar results to that particular IP on different ISP's

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