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Author Topic: Switch over from PN to Zen issue  (Read 12511 times)

mofa2020

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2020, 09:52:52 AM »

Oh and this is interesting, I dropped PPP session few times by pressing "disconnect" on my D7000 and it reduced the latency to 10-11ms, I believe it didn't drop DSL because when I clicked 'connect' internet went back in like 2 seconds? And DSL stats seem to be the same. I believe it takes about a minute to connect back to internet if DSL is dropped.

Yes ppp session is just reconnecting with ISP but the DSL service is no affected at all as you said it will take a minute to resync for a full DSL resync. but did the hops changed? or just the same with less ping,, if you want to try GEA it is ok though it may lead to a DLM reset (I do not know) but if DLM changed anything like applying interleave by default then it would a matter of time and it will be sorted out..

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N0STIE

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2020, 10:42:08 AM »

Yes ppp session is just reconnecting with ISP but the DSL service is no affected at all as you said it will take a minute to resync for a full DSL resync. but did the hops changed? or just the same with less ping,, if you want to try GEA it is ok though it may lead to a DLM reset (I do not know) but if DLM changed anything like applying interleave by default then it would a matter of time and it will be sorted out..

Yep the hops changed to what they were previously (lond2). I want to try GEA because why not? Nothing to lose really apart from being interleaved once again but it will be matter of time when it will vanish. If latency will be worse in terms of peering/routing - but I doubt it, then I'll ask to be migrated back to WBMC and of course I'll be forcing PPP drops to achieve lowest latency possible which should be 9-10ms. If not, then I will be happy with my 10-11ms.

Coming back to dropping PPP I highlighted what exactly changes when I click "disconnect" and "connect". There is nothing about DSL in router logs, only that it connected to internet and IP [xxx]. Last time I dropped it 5hrs ago. Are you sure it's not dropping DSL?

Show Statistics
 
System Up Time 4 days 06:45:23
Port   Status   TxPkts   RxPkts   Collisions   Tx B/s   Rx B/s   Up Time
WAN   VDSL Link   265508   411509   0   1685   10648   05:47:41
LAN1   1000M/Full   34654560   17189598   0   8122266   11228760   4 days 06:45:23
LAN2   Link Down   --
LAN3   Link Down   --
LAN4   Link Down   --
2.4G WLAN b/g/n   --   --   --   --   --   --   --
5G WLAN a/n/ac   1300M   27932420   12319075   0   3246   3440   4 days 06:45:23

VDSL Link   Downstream   Upstream
Connection Speed   39993 kbps   9995 kbps
Line Attenuation   11.9 db   10.7 db
Noise Margin   23.0 db   18.6 db

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On the other hand, I've heard some routers such as Drayteks can reduce latency by 2ms comparing to routers supplied by ISP. I am wondering if that still might be the same in my case where I already have D7000 and it gives me 1ms lower than Zen's fritzbox 7530.

I'd love to achieve 8ms from north west as some people do @boost I am looking at you  :cool:
« Last Edit: February 16, 2020, 12:22:21 PM by N0STIE »
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mofa2020

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2020, 03:49:20 PM »

Yes, WAN disconnect/connect should affect ppp session only and do not affect neither the DSL connection nor DLM at least for routers I dealt with and you said the evidence that proves it as you mentioned it took 2 seconds to reconnect which no router/dsl service can resync. in just 2 seconds it needs about 30 seconds to fully resync. DSL and new PPP session to start.

The WAN VDSL link time probably only means the internet up time which is actually the ppp session, because "as an experiment" if you edited PPP username/pasword with anything wrong DSL would still sync. normally with line stats and everything BUT the PPP session with ISP will be down due to the wrong settings entered so the WAN VDSL link will be down.

For the changed hops probably due to getting a different IP from ISP which is randomly switching between routs, may be with static IP it will be the same hops all the time as I do not know it is determined by every PPP session start or IP change.
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N0STIE

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2020, 07:25:16 AM »

Yes, WAN disconnect/connect should affect ppp session only and do not affect neither the DSL connection nor DLM at least for routers I dealt with and you said the evidence that proves it as you mentioned it took 2 seconds to reconnect which no router/dsl service can resync. in just 2 seconds it needs about 30 seconds to fully resync. DSL and new PPP session to start.

The WAN VDSL link time probably only means the internet up time which is actually the ppp session, because "as an experiment" if you edited PPP username/pasword with anything wrong DSL would still sync. normally with line stats and everything BUT the PPP session with ISP will be down due to the wrong settings entered so the WAN VDSL link will be down.

For the changed hops probably due to getting a different IP from ISP which is randomly switching between routs, may be with static IP it will be the same hops all the time as I do not know it is determined by every PPP session start or IP change.

Thanks for keeping my stress down. Zen provide a static IP.

Once my line is migrated to GEA and interleaving removed I'll update you further.
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2020, 07:33:15 AM »

As I understand it, which equipment your PPP session terminates on at Zen is random or at least load balanced in some way.  This is why it used to be sometimes you'd go via Manchester and sometimes London, but even if you're always going via London it can be a different endpoint and so cause latency differences.

I'm not sure how other ISPs deal with the same thing, but I know years ago when I was on Plusnet they used to have a similar issue where one endpoint would get contended and you'd have to drop the session a few times to get on another one.

Worth noting, I've never seen less than 13ms on Plusnet or Zen VDSL.  Even though Plusnet used to have 8ms first hop and Zen 12ms, they equalled out by the second hop.  Until my Plusnet line got interleaved recently that is. :(
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Broadband: Zen Full Fibre 900 + Three 5G Routers: pfSense (Intel N100) + Huawei CPE Pro 2 H122-373 WiFi: Zyxel NWA210AX
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N0STIE

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2020, 07:35:25 AM »

May I ask where about in country are you Alex?
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2020, 08:08:37 AM »

Sheffield, but its also worth noting my line technology is Talk Talk Business.

The curious thing is, looking at the comparison now with 8ms interleaving on the Plusnet line, it looks like it would be quicker  than Zen to bbc.co.uk if both lines were fastpath.  I only tested Google DNS before.

Code: [Select]
1  250.core.plus.net (195.166.130.250)  15.384 ms  15.417 ms  15.228 ms
 2  84.93.253.83 (84.93.253.83)  16.384 ms  15.999 ms  16.542 ms
 3  core1-BE1.colindale.ukcore.bt.net (195.99.125.132)  15.937 ms  15.927 ms  16.199 ms
 4  peer2-et0-0-1.slough.ukcore.bt.net (62.172.103.202)  17.286 ms  17.127 ms  16.580 ms
 5  * * *
 6  151.101.128.81 (151.101.128.81)  16.817 ms  16.755 ms  16.791 ms

Code: [Select]
1  losubs.subs.bng1.th-lon.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.17)  16.045 ms  13.161 ms  13.177 ms
 2  ae1-177.cr2.th-lon.zen.net.uk (62.3.80.38)  17.066 ms  22.040 ms  13.424 ms
 3  ip81-59.fastly-gw1.lonap.net (5.57.81.59)  16.211 ms  19.391 ms  14.100 ms
 4  151.101.128.81 (151.101.128.81)  19.194 ms  15.838 ms  13.512 ms

But Plusnet seems to have the same issue for me as you with Zen, sometimes the first hop will be 8ms, sometimes it will be 13ms.
I'm not sure if its even PPP session related as I never checked the logs to see if the connection had dropped when it changed.

In all honesty though, the biggest improvement I found on my line latency wise has been switching to pfSense Release Candidate on my router.  No difference to ping times but DNS seems to be lightening fast now.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 08:13:26 AM by Alex Atkin UK »
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mofa2020

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2020, 09:46:32 AM »

Thanks for keeping my stress down. Zen provide a static IP.

Once my line is migrated to GEA and interleaving removed I'll update you further.

Any time  :) and thanks for keeping me updated..
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N0STIE

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #53 on: February 17, 2020, 02:11:46 PM »

After reading some of the threads at various forums it seems like people are getting worse latency while on GEA than on WBMC such as @tommy45?

I am now not quite sure whether I should migrate to GEA as Zen just replied that I won't be able to migrate back to WBMC if my latency gets worse.

As far as I understand Zen's GEA routes from north west to London and back to Manchester which may double the latency while WBMC goes via Manchester to London?

Anyone in North west area and with Zen GEA can maybe post their latency?

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spaace

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #54 on: February 17, 2020, 03:08:49 PM »

I just like to see lower number  ;D

i know the feeling :D

and redialling the PPP doesn't affect DLM (at least on my draytek) - i have been known to do 50+ redials to get off my ISP's manchester auth server (19ms to bbc) to get on the london one (7ms to bbc)
i am in the midlands so going up to manchester and down to london makes no sense, but if you are already in the north west i can;t imagine something similar making much difference?
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Chrysalis

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #55 on: February 18, 2020, 06:57:01 AM »

Zen's tech support said my line has error correction off so I am not interleaved. How come my base latency is 19ms? They confirmed I am routed via London although they said I may be migrated to GEA.

I can tell you without even seeing your line stats they are "probably" wrong.

The reason is Openreach default profile is now interleaved.  The days of default fast path are over.

It is possible of course though that you didnt get a DLM reset, and the latency increase is down to the routing.
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Chrysalis

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #56 on: February 18, 2020, 07:02:34 AM »

If the OP migrated to the same Openreach product IE 80/20 40/10 ect and was previously BT WBMC then NO DLM reset would occur, I know this from personal experience i migrated from plusnot to Zen same product same address and the same back haul WBMC, If i had been provisioned on GEA  it would have caused a reset which is what also happened when after around 2 yrs Zen migrated my circuit to their GEA, DLM reset, same when the migrated it back to WBMC again , each time it took around 14 days to get G.inp back fastpath i think took around 7-10 days both times


Remember there is different types of BTw. https://kitz.co.uk/adsl/wbc_wbmc.htm

e.g. Plusnet used to be on WBMC shared and are now on dedicated, whilst I expect Zen is probably on shared.   So those may be enough to do the DLM reset.
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niemand

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #57 on: February 18, 2020, 07:32:17 PM »

Openreach don't see a change moving from WBC to WBMC, that is all done by BT Wholesale and Openreach just see a line remaining with BT Wholesale. No order placed with Openreach.

A move to straight GEA, whether Zen, Vodafone, TalkTalk, Sky, whomever, does require Openreach changes and will trigger a DLM reset.

This is due to the need to remap the circuit to a different VLAN so that it goes to the new operator's equipment when it leaves Openreach equipment.

Obviously BT Wholesale to BT Wholesale there's nothing for Openreach to do: the data stays on the same VLAN as far as they are concerned and BT Wholesale handle it after that.
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #58 on: February 18, 2020, 09:08:07 PM »

So when I'm say connected to Zen over Talk Talk Business, which technology is this using?
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Broadband: Zen Full Fibre 900 + Three 5G Routers: pfSense (Intel N100) + Huawei CPE Pro 2 H122-373 WiFi: Zyxel NWA210AX
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niemand

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #59 on: February 19, 2020, 08:29:53 AM »

GEA via TalkTalk Business.
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