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Author Topic: Switch over from PN to Zen issue  (Read 4689 times)

N0STIE

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Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« on: February 12, 2020, 05:54:07 AM »

Hi,

My switch over from PN to Zen has just completed but I am having an issue with DLM!

So their supplied router has arrived few days before the switch date so I was curious and plugged it in to check WiFi range, latency etc. I was shocked as just after 24hrs DLM applied 8ms of delay to DS as reported by their fritz.box 7530 router (I was 12 months without any interleaving with PN despite restarting router few times a day sometimes). So I plugged back my Netgear D7000 v2 hoping that it will be removed after 24hrs which it didn't happen. Then the day after came the switch overnight so I was like oh ok change of ISP will remove interleaving which it hasn't! I downgraded from 80/20 to 40/10 by the way.

Now I am worried why was DLM triggered? And what has it triggered? Fritzbox?
Is it 100% of chances that it will be removed after few days/weeks? My line is rock stable and I am getting full 40/10, previously I was on full 80/20 with 90/30 attainable.

And one more thing guys please take a look on trace route of Zen, is it the best route they could possibly do from North West (Liverpool)? I noticed it routes directly to London gateway?
After removing 8ms it will be 11ms base latency, so 2ms slower than with PN. I now regret the switch.

1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.0.1
  2    19 ms    19 ms    19 ms  vt1.cor2.lond2.ptn.zen.net.uk [51.148.72.24]
  3    23 ms    26 ms    21 ms  ae-5.pe2.thn-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.100]
  4    24 ms    19 ms    19 ms  ae-1.pe1.thn-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.94]
  5    19 ms    19 ms    19 ms  vl-50.ae6.cr1.th-lon.zen.net.uk [51.148.73.57]
  6    19 ms    20 ms    19 ms  195.66.227.114
  7    19 ms    19 ms    19 ms  151.101.192.81

Thanks in advance!
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PhilipD

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2020, 07:53:20 AM »

Hi

Just sounds like as part of the move across your line was reset, so the DLM starts afresh.  Openreach now enable interleaving by default, so when it's been reset it has come back with interleaving on, so in a few days or a couple of weeks it should go back to as it was before.

As for Zen and their latency, well every ISP will have different routing.  Zen also have their own network so often routing is a little more complex as they get your traffic onto their own network.  I've seen posts of people with Zen being less than happy about routing decisions, so I'd say what you report is going to be typical.  You may be better off asking about routing in Zen's own forums.

Regards

Phil
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2020, 09:23:57 AM »

Most of the comments I've seen being unhappy with Zen are because they have seen their connection have low latency using their Manchester PoP but then another time end up going via London.  Its less than optimal (as there is no way for the session to intelligently choose the shortest route, its purely random) but somewhat a none issue when you consider most ISPs only go via London, so you'd never see such a discrepancy.  Its basically that for some people, sometimes Zen is more efficient than most ISPs so people notice the difference.

They have had single thread speed issues in the past, but then what ISP hasn't?

Zen are just a more complicated ISP as their backhaul can be Openreach, Talk Talk Business or Zen, depending on what provider is available at your exchange.  Their future plans are very ambitious, to have metro rings in as many cities as possible so backhaul can be routed more efficiently and presumably so they can sell plain ethernet packages directly to multi-dwelling buildings.

From my own experience, there's really not much between Plusnet and Zen (Talk Talk Business backhaul).  Both can differ significantly in first-hop latency depending on a given PPP session, but tend to work out pretty much equally in latency once out on the Internet.  I do see ICMP packet loss on Plusnet frequently, but its hard to say if its always real-world loss (it sometimes is as I had to move my VPNs to Zen due to it causing dropped connections) or even if its just because my Plusnet line has far more errors than my Zen line.
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Exchange: INTAKE (ECI DSLAM) Router: pfSense (i5-7200U) ISP/Modems: Zen (Home Hub 5A running OpenWrt) + Plusnet (VMG-3925-B10B) WiFi: Ubiquiti nanoHD

spaace

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2020, 11:04:44 AM »

as said interleaving is applied by default now and will come off soon if your line is fine (all of mine were 24-36 hours after going live)

i have an issue on my isp that they have auth servers in manchester and london, ping times to bbc via london are 8ms and 19ms via manchester. I live in the midlands so i am going up then back down the country so i just redial until i hit london. it probably makes little difference to you as most endpoints you hit are likely to be in london anyway?

how come you left PN?
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N0STIE

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2020, 11:38:29 AM »

how come you left PN?

They didn't offer me another 12 months contract but 18 so it pushed me off. Apart from that I can't say bad word on them.
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tommy45

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2020, 08:53:04 PM »

I n your Zen portal what does it report for the technology for your service WBMC or GEA? if GEA then you will be routed to London and the only way they can change this is by putting on BTWholsale backhaul You would then have BTW Bras IP profile  that will restrict your max throughput (on max sync rate for product) by about 1-2mbps throughpuit less  due to BT's max IP profile being 77.45  and 77.35 for G.inp enabled circuits
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N0STIE

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2020, 12:07:24 AM »

I n your Zen portal what does it report for the technology for your service WBMC or GEA? if GEA then you will be routed to London and the only way they can change this is by putting on BTWholsale backhaul You would then have BTW Bras IP profile  that will restrict your max throughput (on max sync rate for product) by about 1-2mbps throughpuit less  due to BT's max IP profile being 77.45  and 77.35 for G.inp enabled circuits

Your current line technology is WBMC.

What does that mean? If I was on GEA, would I achieve better latency/routing?
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N0STIE

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2020, 12:12:32 PM »

Zen's tech support said my line has error correction off so I am not interleaved. How come my base latency is 19ms? They confirmed I am routed via London although they said I may be migrated to GEA.
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j0hn

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2020, 02:37:49 PM »

Zen's tech support said my line has error correction off so I am not interleaved. How come my base latency is 19ms? They confirmed I am routed via London although they said I may be migrated to GEA.

All then how they are telling you Interleaving is off.

The DLM line profile reported in a GEA test is 13 days old.
If Seen says using this to check the line profile they need to let their staff know it's old.
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N0STIE

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2020, 07:38:50 PM »

Well, they again confirmed my line has no interleaving.

"I have run through the statistics of your line and I can see your current profile which is:
0.128M-40M Downstream, Error Protection Off
0.128M-10M Upstream, Error Protection Off

This does show that Interleaving is disabled on your connection and you are correct, the line does appear to be of high quality as there are no ES or SES detected since you went active with us, which is great news."

An email from them.


So how come Fritzbox 7530 initially showed 8ms of delay on the migration day and it somehow is now disabled despite no resync on D7000. The downstream and upstream are 40000/9995 which clearly is interleaved? I am so confused now.
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j0hn

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2020, 07:50:41 PM »

Interleaving can't remove without a resync.

As previously pointed out in my last post the DLM profile shown in a GEA test is from a 13 day old profile.
Check 13 days after your line migrated and it will show Interleaving.
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N0STIE

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2020, 07:55:43 PM »

You're right.

No resync since migration so it must be interleaved.

Well 40000/9995 tells us about it right?
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RealAleMadrid

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2020, 07:58:17 PM »

Why do you think the sync speeds of 40000 and 9995 show it is interleaved? You need a lot more information than that to decide what state the line is in. Can you get some stats from the router?
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N0STIE

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2020, 08:02:40 PM »

Unfortunately D7000 doesn't provide any stats apart from sync

I think that because when I was interleaved the downstream always was at whole number e.g. 40000, when on fast it's always been like 79995, 39995, 39999 or 39997 depending on router. When I was with PN on fastpath D7000 was showing 79995/19999
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 08:07:28 PM by N0STIE »
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mofa2020

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Re: Switch over from PN to Zen issue
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2020, 08:24:29 PM »

Unfortunately D7000 doesn't provide any stats apart from sync

Like the Linksys x6200 which I bought without knowing it has nothing to show  :swoon:

I think that because when I was interleaved the downstream always was at whole number e.g. 40000, when on fast it's always been like 79995, 39995, 39999 or 39997 depending on router. When I was with PN on fastpath D7000 was showing 79995/19999

No I believe it is not necessary to be the case, but the actual ping would be an indicator.

Then the day after came the switch overnight so I was like oh ok change of ISP will remove interleaving which it hasn't!

So you got interleaved while on PN?!
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