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[noseypete]

Hi all,

Another noob request for recommendations for a modem/router setup, I'm afraid!

Current situation:

I'm on Plusnet Business FTTC 80/20 and have been using the Plusnet supplied router for the last year. In that time, I've burnt through two of them because they overheated when transferring files between machines on my network. Despite this, I get a fairly reliable ~67 meg down and ~18 up.

I work from home, have 2 desktop PCs and around 15 wireless laptops/devices. I'm a developer and thus fairly techy but am relatively inexperienced with routers, modems and the like.

I would prefer an all in one modem/router/access point for ease, but am open to using separate units if it gives me markedly better performance at a reasonable cost.

Requirements for me are:

- Reliability. I want this thing to work and keep working.
- Wireless speed. If I'm investing now, I'd prefer to buy something with the latest AC standards - if it's worth it?
- Wireless coverage. I'm in a small terraced house and currently have an extender working at the back of the house - this works fine for me. The router is located in my office where the majority of my devices are. But I still want decent signal coverage.
- Gigabit LAN ports.
- Budget up to £175 ish, but don't want to spunk a load of money if it's not necessary.

Nice to haves:

- VPN capability
- USB printer sharing, possibly additon of NAS (USB 3.0 preferred for that for speed)
- 3G/4G failover
- A decent GUI

Questions:

- Separate modem and router or all in one?
- Do I need to tweak modem settings? Will I see a benefit?
- Draytek and Billion versus TP-Link, Asus, Netgear - the latter seem much cheaper and have more features - what's wrong with them!?
- Do I need MU-MIMO? Is there a real world performance improvement when running many wireless devices?
- Do I need >AC2800 speeds? Again is there a real world difference?


I've looked at the TP-Link Archer VR2800, Billion 8800AXL R2, DrayTek Vigor 2762AC so far.

Any recommendations much appreciated.

Thanks,

Pete

[psychopomp1]

If you're after after a 1 box setup then something like the Billion 8900AX or TP Link VR2800 are excellent choices.

If you want a separate modem & router then I would recommend something like the TP Link W9970 (in bridge mode) paired with a Netgear R7800 - the R7800 sits on top of Smallnetbuilder router charts for wifi coverage, due to the excellent Qualcomm radios its uses.

[noseypete]

Thanks psychopomp1, that's great.

The TP Link VR2800 is currently around £123 ex VAT on Amazon which makes it much cheaper than the alternatives you mentioned, so seems a good buy.

Could I ask - do you have the ability to tweak SNR settings to play with sync speeds on the VR2800?  I know the Billions allow lots of tweakage in this area but have never read anything about the TP Links allowing this. Also, will I gain anything from being able to tweak those settings? As mentioned, I get ~67 down, 18 up anyway.

Also I saw a review on Amazon mentioning IPv6 isn't possible with BT as "TP-Link routers only work with a /64 site prefix length, yet BT uses /56". Do you have any experience of this, by any chance?

[Alex Atkin UK]

You can only tweak down not up, on the BT network.  So its only really a benefit if you are having problems being stuck interleaved and trying to get fastpath.

[mofa2020]

TP_LINK is the worst regards tweaking (any tweaking) as the broadcom telnet is locked or not existing at all and is replaced with a custom tp-link cli which actually not useful in anything at all except for some line stats, for tweaking you can choose between billion, asus, or draytek.

I saw people here have some problems with asus dsl-68u which I found popular here and probably the problems may due to it is using mediatek chipset (guess bt not including it in supported devices anymore), what I believe working good is either broadcom which is used in many billion routers (but different chip's versions) but as stated here that some recent billion routers used a more mid-range chipsets than older models so the billion router model should be done carefully for the best result.. or the vigor 130 which is based on lantiq chipset (vigor 130 is a modem only not a full router) it is old so I believe it will not be found new anymore though the vigor 2762AC is available and based on lantiq chipset (all vigors I believe) and you can do some tweaking from web UI or through telnet.

Personally I would recommend the Vigor 2762AC for good performance both modem and router (specially as you are networking user kind) that requires a really good built router but it is difficult to speculate how any router would perform on your line based on the line length and HUAWEI or ECI cabinet that your are connected to.

[noseypete]

Thanks guys, appreciate the responses.

@Alex Atkin UK - I'm on Plusnet, never sure if this really counts as 'BT' or not, seeing as they tend to have differing policies on various tech aspects. Forgive my ignorance but I'm not aware of being stuck interleaved or trying to get fastpath, or what that means!? I get a fairly steady 67 meg-ish down but I do get a lot of drops - I've been attributing this to the Plusnet router as it happens more often when many devices are sucking bandwidth.

@mofa2020 - thanks, you've identified the big difference between these cheaper routers and the billions or Drayteks. I'm on a Huawei cabinet which is located no more than 200m away. The exchange is 1.65km away as the crow flies.

[mofa2020]

interleaved vs fastpath is all about latency time with lower stable sync. rate vs less latency with probably higher sync. rate but if the line is really not holding it interleaved would be enabled by DLM (a more concern for online games players)

I believe Vigor 2762 would perform well as your line is not considered long from cabinet as distance to exchange does not matter anymore in fttc, these are the specs. for wifi

2.4G WLAN 802.11n 2x2 MIMO 300Mbps (n/ac/Vac model)
5G WLAN 802.11ac Wave 2 2x2 MIMO 867Mbps (ac/Vac model)

[noseypete]

Thanks for the explanation there mofa2020. Good to know. I should have mentioned latency - I get ~6ms generally which isn't too bad, I think.

Interesting to hear your thoughts - my only concerns with Draytek are the price to wireless speed ratio - 867Mbps vs 2167Mbps on the TP Link VR2800 will, I imagine, make a noticeable difference when copying files across a network. The faster models (Vigor 2862) are ~£220 ex vat and run at 1733Mbps, so still maginally slower at a hundred quid more than the TP-Link.

I suppose the question is whether I really need the ability to tweak the modem side of things, and whether it will gain me any more speed than an auto configuration.

[mofa2020]

I believe that you are on fastpath with ~6ms and guess that the vr2800 would give you ~ same sync. rate and it is faster over wifi than vigor 2762 but at the expense of tweaking so if the faster wifi is more beneficial to you then go for it, you are the only one to judge it.

do you get the upload speed of your plan and want to squeeze the line little more? or you are not getting it and want to lower snrm to get more speed.

[Alex Atkin UK]

In the real-world, hitting 2167Mbit is never going to happen and I suspect needs 160Mhz channel width and 4x4 MIMO, a combination almost impossible to get in a client (I believe its only available on expensive PCIe expansion cards).

Most devices only support 2x2 MIMO at 80Mhz (866Mbit) and while theoretically with 4x4 MU-MIMO it should be able to talk to two 2x2 MU-MIMO devices at the same time, very few clients support MU-MIMO so will fall back to normal mode anyway.  That TP Link also looks suspect, as its using deatachable antennas that kinda suggest they are plain dipole, that transmit it all directions, so I don't see how it can even work properly with MU-MIMO anyway as the primary use-case for that is being able to send the WiFi signal only in the direction of the desired client (beamforming).

My own AP supports 4x4 MU-MIMO, is ceiling mounted with beamforming and I still found with two devices pushing data at the same time, the speed halved.  The speed at range however was better than I've experienced before, but I can't see the TP Link benefiting there due to its antenna layout/type.

Even after considering all that, at 80Mhz channel width (866Mbit) I get 600Mbit real-world and 160Mhz channel width (up to 1733Mbit) 700Mbit, as it struggles to link above 1200Mbit.

So yeah, I wouldn't put too much faith in devices claiming to support super high WiFi speeds, its mostly marketing.

[j0hn]

You can only tweak down not up, on the BT network.  So its only really a benefit if you are having problems being stuck interleaved and trying to get fastpath.

You can with Lantiq chipsets, just not with Broadcom chipsets.

That's handy with ECI DSLAM's with a fixed 6dB target.

[Alex Atkin UK]

You can with Lantiq chipsets, just not with Broadcom chipsets.

That's handy with ECI DSLAM's with a fixed 6dB target.

Wish I'd known that like 6-12 months ago.

[mofa2020]

You can with Lantiq chipsets, just not with Broadcom chipsets.

That's handy with ECI DSLAM's with a fixed 6dB target.

Can it work on Huawei cabinet? because his line on one.

I'm on a Huawei cabinet which is located no more than 200m away.

[noseypete]

Thanks again all, I'm learning a lot.

do you get the upload speed of your plan and want to squeeze the line little more? or you are not getting it and want to lower snrm to get more speed.

I currently get ~67Mbps down and ~18Mbps up. Obviously I'd like to get the full 80/20 but I don't know if that is even possible. Is it possible?! There seems to be more room for improvement on the down than the up.

In the real-world, hitting 2167Mbit is never going to happen and I suspect needs 160Mhz channel width and 4x4 MIMO, a combination almost impossible to get in a client (I believe its only available on expensive PCIe expansion cards).

I hear you. I guess I want to buy something that is going to be future proof to some degree. I experience stalls quite often when two devices are streaming video (web pages simply don't load until the other device finishes). Can a VR2800 owner tell us what real world speeds they get and how well it deals with multiple devices?

Sounds like another option could therefore be to get a Billion or Draytek for the modem/routing and then a separate AP to get decent WiFi speeds.

Also, any opinions on the Billion 8800AXL R2?

[mofa2020]

Thanks again all, I'm learning a lot.

I currently get ~67Mbps down and ~18Mbps up. Obviously I'd like to get the full 80/20 but I don't know if that is even possible. Is it possible?! There seems to be more room for improvement on the down than the up.

can you post your line stats from current router? this maybe as much as it can get and trying to get more may lead to instability..

I hear you. I guess I want to buy something that is going to be future proof to some degree. I experience stalls quite often when two devices are streaming video (web pages simply don't load until the other device finishes). Can a VR2800 owner tell us what real world speeds they get and how well it deals with multiple devices?

Sounds like another option could therefore be to get a Billion or Draytek for the modem/routing and then a separate AP to get decent WiFi speeds.

Also, any opinions on the Billion 8800AXL R2?

Now we are talking, I believe the Vigor in general can take what it gets because it not the wifi raw speed only that matters but also how the device can handle the many connected devices at the same time (the status of being connected)... from what I saw on draytek 2762 live demo on the company's website is that the vigor routers are basically networking routers with many options to balance the bandwidth between devices or put a limit of speed for certain devices, and many many other networking options and I personally can not imagine that any tp-link router would do that apart from that I have the vr400 (I know it different and way below vr2800) but the wifi sucks both 2.5ghz which can not deliver decent 20mbps of 70mbps connection and the 5ghz I really regret buying it...

Billion on the other hand I do not much about it other that what I read hear,, it would be good in performance on vdsl but the wifi under load that may be tricky for it...