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Author Topic: INP/Interleave delay vs Speed..!  (Read 1701 times)

mofa2020

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INP/Interleave delay vs Speed..!
« on: January 18, 2020, 04:15:20 PM »

Hello Kitzens, I really have a weird issue "as I assume it is an issue" that is internet speed vs interleave delay and INP.

In the pictures are my line stats for plans 100mb/10mb, 70mb/7mb (line sync. higher but the actual speed is 70/7) and 30mb/3mb (sync. like 70mb plan higher but actual speed is 30/3) what makes me wondering is how with higher download sync. speed I get lower download interleave delay but at the same time with the higher upload speed I get higher interleave delay, actually I understand the upload part (higher speed, higher work on the line so it can be stable and achieve such speed) but it is not the same for higher download sync. and it is reversed in the 30/3 plan where lower sync speed leads to higher Interleave delay on download side but lower Interleave delay on the upload side, for me it looks like the upload is tending to fastpath as speed closer to 1mb but the download speed side is the real mystery for me (low speed/higher delay and high speed/low delay)....

I am considering to but a draytek vigor 2762 to force upload speed of 1mb (fastpath I hope) I do not upload much, while subscribing to 100mb plan so I get the least Interleave delay possible.

And one more thing,line is FTTC on Huawei cabinet about ~80 meters or less from my building and I am not from UK. how can the line achieve this 95mb speed and capable of more while on just VDSL2? as this router and other routers state no sign of vectoring at all (VDSL routers I have all has basic dsl stats not much details.)

*The 3 line stats are from the same router, just the firmware changed.
 
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mofa2020

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Re: INP/Interleave delay vs Speed..!
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2020, 07:38:42 PM »

I think I got it somehow, so the 30mbs is available from all ISPs in my country and it is the cheapest/basic plan so there must be so many many subscribers to it this means that there will be so much much cross-talk between lines (or errors) at the same sync. speed  that explains the higher interleave delay/g.inp and I think just because upload speed of 4mbs is nothing for fttc that would explain the low interleave delay/g.inp for upload speed.

For higher speeds (70 and 100) where not much subscribers, since there is much difference in speeds from 30 that means less cross-talk and thus it needs little interleave/g.inp for the errors that may be generated by being synced to higher speeds both on download and upload.

I know g.inp do not cause delays (about 4ms both ways) and is a better way to correct errors than interleaving, but somehow both are kept enabled nation wide on all lines so lines be stable as much as possible at the expense of latency and sync. speed over fastpath ::)
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burakkucat

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Re: INP/Interleave delay vs Speed..!
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2020, 07:49:31 PM »

I'm sorry that no one has been able to give you any sort of reasonable interpretation to your observations. As you hint in your follow-on post, it is probably something that relates to the country in which the service is provided.
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mofa2020

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Re: INP/Interleave delay vs Speed..!
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2020, 08:06:00 PM »

I'm sorry that no one has been able to give you any sort of reasonable interpretation to your observations. As you hint in your follow-on post, it is probably something that relates to the country in which the service is provided.

Thanks for your reply,

The main co. here (like Openreach) actually still rolling out fttc in country so maybe when the thing finished things will change, but in the meantime I believe getting rid of upload interleaving is possible, but do you know how I can get 95mb? I read that vdsl can reach 100mb in perfect lab conditions which can be noway my line or almost any other line.
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: INP/Interleave delay vs Speed..!
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2020, 08:25:27 PM »

That's an interesting theory, I've never really seen any comparisons of bitloading between different sync rates on a line capable of a high speed.

The question is, does it prioritise the lower frequencies over the higher ones when syncing below maximum or does it spread them across the whole spectrum just loading each frequency less?  I could certainly see a logic in the former, but surely crosstalk could be lower in both scenarios?
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burakkucat

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Re: INP/Interleave delay vs Speed..!
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2020, 08:44:22 PM »

. . . but do you know how I can get 95mb?

No, sorry, I don't.

Quote
I read that vdsl can reach 100mb in perfect lab conditions which can be noway my line or almost any other line.

Under laboratory conditions I have managed to achieve the following --

 > xdslctl info --stats
xdslctl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason:   0
Last initialization procedure status:   0
Max:   Upstream rate = 48545 Kbps, Downstream rate = 156668 Kbps
Bearer:   0, Upstream rate = 48545 Kbps, Downstream rate = 97762 Kbps

Link Power State:   L0
Mode:         VDSL2 Annex A
VDSL2 Profile:      Profile 17a
TPS-TC:         PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis:      U:ON /D:ON
Line Status:      No Defect
Training Status:   Showtime
             Down         Up
SNR (dB):    20.2       10.2
Attn(dB):     1.8        0.0
Pwr(dBm):    10.7        5.3

The VTU-C was configured for profile 17a, interleaving and with a target SNR margin of 6dB.

Quite artificial, of course.
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mofa2020

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Re: INP/Interleave delay vs Speed..!
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2020, 09:34:23 PM »

That's an interesting theory, I've never really seen any comparisons of bitloading between different sync rates on a line capable of a high speed.

The question is, does it prioritise the lower frequencies over the higher ones when syncing below maximum or does it spread them across the whole spectrum just loading each frequency less?  I could certainly see a logic in the former, but surely crosstalk could be lower in both scenarios?

Sorry all my vdsl routers lack of/do not support anything that can report tones or anything to monitor it, but from what I understood from what you said I believe your first assumption "priorities the lower frequencies" that explains the higher interleave delay and higher g.inp on lower download speeds they are needed more to correct the errors, but on 70mb or 100mb although I get many fec errors and sometimes crc errors the interleave delay/g.inp is lower than 30mb ones so I believe that the lower frequencies are loaded less (the ones with many people actually using them <cross-talk>) and the higher frequencies that are not much used allocated normally though I get much higher fec errors and some crc errors with lower delay/g.inp compared to 30mb but the connection remains stable.. the "gap" between 30mb and higher speeds maybe it is the key reason for lower delay/g.inp on higher speeds.

I have bitswap, sra, sos, vectoring and g.inp all enabled in router UI and it is a ZTE h168n with mediatek chipset.

Do not know if any of this makes sense or not..
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mofa2020

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Re: INP/Interleave delay vs Speed..!
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2020, 09:41:35 PM »

No, sorry, I don't.

Under laboratory conditions I have managed to achieve the following --

 > xdslctl info --stats
xdslctl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason:   0
Last initialization procedure status:   0
Max:   Upstream rate = 48545 Kbps, Downstream rate = 156668 Kbps
Bearer:   0, Upstream rate = 48545 Kbps, Downstream rate = 97762 Kbps

Link Power State:   L0
Mode:         VDSL2 Annex A
VDSL2 Profile:      Profile 17a
TPS-TC:         PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis:      U:ON /D:ON
Line Status:      No Defect
Training Status:   Showtime
             Down         Up
SNR (dB):    20.2       10.2
Attn(dB):     1.8        0.0
Pwr(dBm):    10.7        5.3

The VTU-C was configured for profile 17a, interleaving and with a target SNR margin of 6dB.

Quite artificial, of course.

This is weird because actually my line can sync. at 99999kbps though the actual speed is shy 93mbs when downloading 92.xmb is what I get and snr keeps around 8db with little fluctuation, maybe something is enabled like vectoring but router is not reporting it enabled!?
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burakkucat

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Re: INP/Interleave delay vs Speed..!
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2020, 10:28:00 PM »

. . . maybe something is enabled like vectoring but router is not reporting it enabled!?

That could be a possibility but as I don't have any knowledge of the ZTE H168n, I am unable help.
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mofa2020

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Re: INP/Interleave delay vs Speed..!
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2020, 10:50:50 PM »

That could be a possibility but as I don't have any knowledge of the ZTE H168n, I am unable help.

Thank you anyway  :), I believe I understood the missing piece of the puzzle I will get the vigor 2762 soon and will update if vectoring is enabled to make things clear.

That's an interesting theory, I've never really seen any comparisons of bitloading between different sync rates on a line capable of a high speed.

The question is, does it prioritise the lower frequencies over the higher ones when syncing below maximum or does it spread them across the whole spectrum just loading each frequency less?  I could certainly see a logic in the former, but surely crosstalk could be lower in both scenarios?

And will look into the frequency loading for different speeds because it is really interesting to discover..

Thanks for both of you  :thumbs:
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Chrysalis

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Re: INP/Interleave delay vs Speed..!
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2020, 01:04:26 PM »

No, sorry, I don't.

Under laboratory conditions I have managed to achieve the following --

 > xdslctl info --stats
xdslctl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason:   0
Last initialization procedure status:   0
Max:   Upstream rate = 48545 Kbps, Downstream rate = 156668 Kbps
Bearer:   0, Upstream rate = 48545 Kbps, Downstream rate = 97762 Kbps

Link Power State:   L0
Mode:         VDSL2 Annex A
VDSL2 Profile:      Profile 17a
TPS-TC:         PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis:      U:ON /D:ON
Line Status:      No Defect
Training Status:   Showtime
             Down         Up
SNR (dB):    20.2       10.2
Attn(dB):     1.8        0.0
Pwr(dBm):    10.7        5.3

The VTU-C was configured for profile 17a, interleaving and with a target SNR margin of 6dB.

Quite artificial, of course.

would love to see bitloading and SNR per tone graphs :) thanks.

Also do you get any errors at all?
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mofa2020

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Re: INP/Interleave delay vs Speed..!
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2020, 05:23:55 PM »

would love to see bitloading and SNR per tone graphs :) thanks.

Also do you get any errors at all?

I get fec errors mostly on download side while on 100mb or 70mb and little on the upload side also on these speeds I get crc errors on download but things improved after I enabled SOS feature from connection settings before it sometimes snr decreases suddenly and errors starts to jump higher.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 06:31:22 PM by mofa2020 »
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neil

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Re: INP/Interleave delay vs Speed..!
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2020, 04:01:59 AM »

yes i think delay and interleaver depth affect attainable rate and it depends on ISP if they want to turn it off or not. In my country you can request to turn it off and it is advertised as fast path for gaming. But i think 10-20ms not gonna make much a difference
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mofa2020

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Re: INP/Interleave delay vs Speed..!
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2020, 09:44:52 AM »

yes i think delay and interleaver depth affect attainable rate and it depends on ISP if they want to turn it off or not. In my country you can request to turn it off and it is advertised as fast path for gaming. But i think 10-20ms not gonna make much a difference

Unfortunately in my country we can not choose to turn it off, the ping in online games is usually 65-80ms apart from some spikes and packet loss..
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neil

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Re: INP/Interleave delay vs Speed..!
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2020, 11:14:28 AM »

Unfortunately in my country we can not choose to turn it off, the ping in online games is usually 65-80ms apart from some spikes and packet loss..
if i may ask where are you from?
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