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Author Topic: Interleaving - how long does it take to remove?  (Read 7057 times)

snadge

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Re: Interleaving - how long does it take to remove?
« Reply #60 on: October 28, 2021, 01:37:10 PM »

That's a whole different can of worms, when the cable gets contention it tends to be much much worse than DSL.  But when it works well, its pretty awesome.

this is correct, I had Virgin for 18 months in a shared house of 10! circa 2015 and got 106Mbps 24,7 over LAN, so was VERY LUCKY, but I've seen many customers suffer from Virgin Congestion and it's not only bad, but it won't get fixed until almost the whole street of Virgin customers have complained!!! as it's a "shared bandwidth" type of setup where each postcode has its own node which may be 1000Mbps or 10,000Mbps shared between a street, if all started to download at the same time you ain't gonna get your speed. they rely on people downloading at different times so that overall you get good speed - even though my experience was pleasant, I WOULD NOT take out a contract with them from experiences in the past with the sheer amount of customers i worked for complaining of Virgin speeds.

as for Interleaving and Fastpath - I used to get FASTPATH for 9 months getting 80/20 until i had that "MISHAP" from midnight till 4am when i lost 10Mb+ speed and been the same since 3 years ago... I'm getting less than 1 errored second per hour and zero CRC's - yet, FP won't be enabled on my Plusnet connection by DLM....it also had a problem recently where my IP was static when it should of been dynamic, going downhill fast in my book PlusNet
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Chrysalis

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Re: Interleaving - how long does it take to remove?
« Reply #61 on: October 28, 2021, 05:24:56 PM »

Gone straight back to interleaved. I can't see anything obviously wrong with the line, although DSLStats is showing a fairly constant 50-60 ES/hour for yesterday. I had a feeling that DLM would stick interleaving back on in the early hours, so pre-emptively placed an order with Virgin. Hopefully the network has improved since I was last with them, although have 14 days to find out. Can always use this one as a backup connection until the contract runs out.

Code: [Select]
adsl info --stats
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason:    1
Last initialization procedure status:   0
Max:    Upstream rate = 13774 Kbps, Downstream rate = 78772 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 13803 Kbps, Downstream rate = 66026 Kbps

Link Power State:       L0
Mode:                   VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile:          Profile 17a
TPS-TC:                 PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis:                U:ON /D:ON
Line Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):        6.2             6.0
Attn(dB):        19.6            0.0
Pwr(dBm):        13.3            6.6

                        VDSL2 framing
                        Bearer 0
MSGc:           18              18
B:              51              238
M:              1               1
T:              64              21
R:              12              16
S:              0.0251          0.5511
L:              20432           3702
D:              1293            1
I:              64              255
N:              64              255

                        Counters
                        Bearer 0
OHF:            34940478                683670
OHFErr:         22              35
RS:             354670280               335164
RSCorr:         97574           237
RSUnCorr:       1035            0

                        Bearer 0
HEC:            188             0
OCD:            0               0
LCD:            0               0
Total Cells:    2847941229              0
Data Cells:     12538367                0
Drop Cells:     0
Bit Errors:     0               0

ES:             8051            14692
SES:            83              8
UAS:            142             106390
AS:             56265

                        Bearer 0
INP:            3.00            0.00
INPRein:        0.00            0.00
delay:          8               0
PER:            1.61            8.71
OR:             119.25          22.03
AgR:            66145.61        13824.86

Bitswap:        10834/10859             8/8

Total time = 50 days 4 hours 48 min 39 sec
FEC:            1693805         3815
CRC:            6707            351
ES:             8051            14692
SES:            83              8
UAS:            142             106390
LOS:            3               0
LOF:            22              0
LOM:            0               0
Latest 15 minutes time = 3 min 39 sec
FEC:            1722            2
CRC:            2               0
ES:             1               0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC:            2407            2
CRC:            0               0
ES:             0               0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Latest 1 day time = 4 hours 48 min 39 sec
FEC:            44530           139
CRC:            12              17
ES:             3               15
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
FEC:            53044           98
CRC:            10              18
ES:             325             3801
SES:            12              2
UAS:            38              26649
LOS:            1               0
LOF:            7               0
LOM:            0               0
Since Link time = 15 hours 37 min 43 sec
FEC:            97574           237
CRC:            22              35
ES:             5               3800
SES:            0               2
UAS:            0               26622
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
NTR: mipsCntAtNtr=0 ncoCntAtNtr=0
 >

50-60ES/hour is DLM territory, am surprised you were moved back to fast path in the first place.  Ideally a line shouldnt be looping between the two.

Usually to get back to fast path the FEC rate has to be very low which would equate to a much lower ES than 50 an hour.
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Chrysalis

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Re: Interleaving - how long does it take to remove?
« Reply #62 on: October 28, 2021, 05:32:05 PM »

this is correct, I had Virgin for 18 months in a shared house of 10! circa 2015 and got 106Mbps 24,7 over LAN, so was VERY LUCKY, but I've seen many customers suffer from Virgin Congestion and it's not only bad, but it won't get fixed until almost the whole street of Virgin customers have complained!!! as it's a "shared bandwidth" type of setup where each postcode has its own node which may be 1000Mbps or 10,000Mbps shared between a street, if all started to download at the same time you ain't gonna get your speed. they rely on people downloading at different times so that overall you get good speed - even though my experience was pleasant, I WOULD NOT take out a contract with them from experiences in the past with the sheer amount of customers i worked for complaining of Virgin speeds.

as for Interleaving and Fastpath - I used to get FASTPATH for 9 months getting 80/20 until i had that "MISHAP" from midnight till 4am when i lost 10Mb+ speed and been the same since 3 years ago... I'm getting less than 1 errored second per hour and zero CRC's - yet, FP won't be enabled on my Plusnet connection by DLM....it also had a problem recently where my IP was static when it should of been dynamic, going downhill fast in my book PlusNet

I think when I was last on cable the bandwidth ratios were much worse then that.  Carl has explained in the past node sizes are not consistent from area to area, due to different companies doing the original cable rollouts.  In my city the node sizes are very large, and docsis bandwidth pools were not that large when I had cable, I think was more like a few hundred mbit shared between a dozen or so streets.

I do agree when cable isnt congested it works very well.  There is areas which are low on subscribers, and as a result the capacity is over provisioned (for VM standards) and they get great performance, then areas like mine where almost everyone has VM and it was originally built with massive node sizes.

The people I know still on cable in my city do still have congestion, but because the rated speeds are so high now along side the docsis shared pools of bandwidth, it no longer drops as low as a couple of mbit, like when I was on there, friend of mine on the 350mbit service usually gets around 20-100mbit in the evenings depending on how bad it is that given day.

I expect in cityfibre areas it has probably improved and it wouldnt surprise me if VM are telling those customers they completed a network upgrade. :D
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g3uiss

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Re: Interleaving - how long does it take to remove?
« Reply #63 on: October 28, 2021, 05:42:09 PM »

Even with interleave it looks a pretty tidy line to me. Canít see how much improvement you would notice on FP unless your a gamer of course.
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Jon21

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Re: Interleaving - how long does it take to remove?
« Reply #64 on: October 28, 2021, 07:04:52 PM »

50-60ES/hour is DLM territory, am surprised you were moved back to fast path in the first place.  Ideally a line shouldnt be looping between the two.

Usually to get back to fast path the FEC rate has to be very low which would equate to a much lower ES than 50 an hour.
It's only seemed to have changed in the last few weeks. Could normally go months being on fast path. Whether it's down to local noise, I'm not sure. Included a screenshot of the average error rates from DSLStats (unfortunately only got 4 days worth).

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Chrysalis

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Re: Interleaving - how long does it take to remove?
« Reply #65 on: October 29, 2021, 12:48:19 AM »

Sadly it happens, I am now interleaved probably for the foreseeable future when previously I was fast path for several years (except very short spells of interleaving once every 2 years or so).

The DSL tech is vulnerable to noise, as well as crosstalk (when no vectoring), so errors appearing out of nowhere isnt unheard off.
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j0hn

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Re: Interleaving - how long does it take to remove?
« Reply #66 on: October 29, 2021, 10:24:56 AM »

Usually to get back to fast path the FEC rate has to be very low which would equate to a much lower ES than 50 an hour.

There's no direct correlation between the number of ES a line receives and the number of FEC the same line may receive.

I had similar ES numbers to Jon21 but over 100 times more FEC.

Some types of interference cause no ES at all but cause 100,000+ FEC per min (Homeplugs do this for example).
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Weaver

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Re: Interleaving - how long does it take to remove?
« Reply #67 on: October 29, 2021, 11:02:06 AM »

It could be that you get a lot of FECs but they are all corrected, either by Reed-Solomon CRCs, poss correction helped by interleave, or corrected by L2 retransmission (ie G.INP). If theyíre corrected, then they donít turn into "CRC" count events or ES.

FECs are only potential trouble. I think Kitz has written something about this.
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Jon21

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Re: Interleaving - how long does it take to remove?
« Reply #68 on: October 29, 2021, 12:08:51 PM »

Virgin Media kit has been delivered. Interesting that the connections on the cable are now push fit. Cable is also quite a bit thinner than the old coax. Wonít have time to activate it until later tonight.
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Jon21

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Re: Interleaving - how long does it take to remove?
« Reply #69 on: October 30, 2021, 01:17:03 PM »

Well the BQM doesn't exactly fill me with confidence, looks horrendous (ignoring the 2 red blocks, which was me). Yet weirdly getting the full speeds that I've gone for. Going off topic though.



Edit: Have cancelled under the cooling off period. Looks almost exactly like when I was last with Virgin, congested. Surprisingly easy to do though, no fuss.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2021, 03:22:13 PM by Jon21 »
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Chrysalis

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Re: Interleaving - how long does it take to remove?
« Reply #70 on: October 31, 2021, 01:01:46 AM »

There's no direct correlation between the number of ES a line receives and the number of FEC the same line may receive.

I had similar ES numbers to Jon21 but over 100 times more FEC.

Some types of interference cause no ES at all but cause 100,000+ FEC per min (Homeplugs do this for example).

You made other posts, that said otherwise?

There would naturally be a correlation, FEC are fixed CRC, the more CRC, the more ES, which means more FEC on an interleaved line.

Now of course you can have situations where you have batches of CRC on low numbers of ES, typical in noise bursts, that would give a high CRC to ES ratio and also high FEC to ES ratio, maybe thats what you mean, but regardless, there seems to be no counter for fixed errored seconds counter, so given it doesnt exist how would DLM determine a means of moving an interleaved line back to fast path?  I dont think it just uses CRC/ES as I have seen instances where there is no ES but moderate levels of FEC, then a higher noise margin is applied, the levels of FEC go down, then DLM acts to switch it back to fast path.

On your homeplugs example, are you saying you seen them cause FEC on an interleaved line but when that "same" line is on fast path they generate no CRC? Or rather they cause no CRC on interleaved lines, there is a clear difference between the two.  Because I can tell you I have seen homeplugs most definitely cause huge amounts of CRC, and then the line becomes interleaved and they then cause FEC instead.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2021, 01:08:07 AM by Chrysalis »
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Jon21

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Re: Interleaving - how long does it take to remove?
« Reply #71 on: January 24, 2022, 04:38:22 PM »

Line has had interleaving put on again. The line, for whatever reason, obviously can't do fastpath at the sync speed it achieves whilst on it, so would it be worth capping the line at roughly the sync rate that I get when interleaved? Sure I've seen this mentioned before. If so, should I do that now or if/when it goes back to fastpath?
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Chrysalis

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Re: Interleaving - how long does it take to remove?
« Reply #72 on: January 24, 2022, 04:46:17 PM »

Yep I think it was j0hn who mentioned that and it seems a reasonable idea to me.
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j0hn

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Re: Interleaving - how long does it take to remove?
« Reply #73 on: January 24, 2022, 04:46:55 PM »

Do it now and the line won't resync at the higher speed when Interleaving is removed.
The lower the the sync on your line = the lower the ES the line generates.

I had to call my sync to maintain fastpath. It would always revert to interleaved within a few days of full sync on fastpath. It works very well.
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j0hn

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Re: Interleaving - how long does it take to remove?
« Reply #74 on: January 24, 2022, 04:47:35 PM »

Yep I think it was j0hn who mentioned that and it seems a reasonable idea to me.

I got the idea from the sticky in the FTTC section. The credit goes to les-70.
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